Are we going to have to play some free gigs just to play? (long, sorry)

[Busker]

I'm getting discouraged.

I've taken on the task of shopping our demo around, trying to schedule us some gigs. No luck so far, but I've only just begun, only a hand full of places. It's not a pro-made recording though, so the sound could be better. But still, you can hear how the band sounds. I think we need to put more work into the demo, plus put together some sort of promo package, even if it's just an 8x10 photo of the band and a demo.

I've called on the phone, I've dropped in on places (during the day, when they aren't busy), and if they are receptive, I'll bring in the boom box and play the demo.

It all goes awry when I name the price. I understand we're just starting out, again, but we can play. We do not have proven drawing power yet, but we're better that some cover bands out there, I think. When they ask the price I've been saying $400 negotiable. We're a 4-piece, guitar, bass, drums, vocalist (if it were up to me, I'd add a second guitarist to make us a 5-piece to fatten up the sound a bit, but it's not up to me). But I don't think $400 is an out of line asking price. Especially since I'm adding "negotiable".

One bar owner didn't even want to hear the demo after the price was revealed. "We pay such and such band $200, no thanks". Practically showed me the door.

Another bar owner, who I told that we might do it for $300, wasn't interested. She didn't want to hear the demo either. She just said "we'll discuss it and call you". I'm not holding my breath.

Our song list is classic rock with a little modern rock sprinkled in. A lot of good songs, and many of the songs are standards, songs that a lot of bands play. So we're not playing a bunch of off the wall stuff nobody wants to hear.

Any advice would be appreciated.

[Double Agent]

Do you have drawing power? Because, if you do, then you could agree to do 1 show for free on the condition that if its successful enough, you can come back for $400.

If you don't have drawing power, play for the door until you have a following.

We started playing at this place about 9 months ago and we were getting paid $300 a night. They changed owners a few months later and we were the first band scheduled to play there after ownership changed. We packed the place, new owner was beside himself. He raises our pay to $400 and wants us for both Friday AND Saturday nights. We changed drummers so we were kind of laying low for a month or two and called our lead singer wondering when we were coming back. He hasn't a good night since we stopped playing there apparently. He told our singer that we make him more money than any other band he books. He is willing to go up yet again and next time we play there, it will likely be $500. A $1000 weekend is pretty good for this area, so we are stoked. He doesn't pay any other band over $350.

Point is, you are there to make them money. If you bring an audience, preferably one that spends money, you will be able to increase your asking price. Until then, you have to understand their bottom line and work within it. Once you are established as a reputable act, increase price accordingly. Best of luck!

[jonschaer]

Not to sound like a jerk, but I think your band's self image is getting ahead of itself. You may very well be as good or better than you suggest, but the venues don't know that. Regardless of your PR, a great demo, etc, they don't know that you'll even show up, or be on time, or play what you say you will, or be a hassle for the sound guy, or get hammered, or start a fight, yada, yada, yada. Look at it from their shoes. Any new act is an unknown, which means risk, and risk means low outlay until you develop a relationship, a reputation, and a following.

You don't seem to want to play for $200. That means you're making zilch and just practicing. Hungry bands take whatever they can get, just to be playing and get heard. Starting out with high asking prices and turning down opportunities usually gives the impression that the band has an attitude.

I would look for any chance to play. Many bars have open mic nights. Haul in small gear and leave an impression. Ask all of your local music stores if they do or sponsor any "new band" nights anywhere. Look for fund-raising/charity gigs. You might get a short set, but it's also better PR since your supporting a cause. Our first gig was a fund-raiser for a county homeless shelter, with two other bands. We felt lucky to get a bar tab. Five weeks later the same bar paid us $500 to come back and solo headline for a 4hr slot, and one of the bar managers there is IN one of the other bands we did that first gig with. Had we not done the "freebie", we would probably still be looking for that first $200 show, and not getting it.

Our music store sponsor also does 2-3 "charity" shows a year. These are in someone's backyard. No charge to get in, no one gets paid. BYOB. Word-of-mouth and cheap flyers. Everything is totally un-amped. The stage is 4 wood stools in the grass. Sell a few t-shirts, and pass around the tip jar to help local musicians in need. These are fun, very laid-back, a chance to experiment if you want. It helps a cause, gives back to the shop giving us deals, and is more exposure for the band. Live exposure is worth more than any demo to a local band.

Just play.

Jon Schaer
Columbus, OH

[chakah]

i agree with the previous posters. i wouldn't play for free - but go in play for $200-$300 at first, promote the show like crazy. believe me if you can pack the place with friends and put on a good show you'll get more money from the bar owner.

not sure where you're band is, but in houston when my band started out - we played one bar for free for advertising in the local Music News magazine - but after that one free show - we'd only play for hard cash. it's tough for a bar owner to take a chance on an un-named band though.

don't give up - it'll just take time.

[Busker]

Originally Posted by jonschaer

You don't seem to want to play for $200. That means you're making zilch and just practicing. Hungry bands take whatever they can get, just to be playing and get heard. Starting out with high asking prices and turning down opportunities usually gives the impression that the band has an attitude.

Yeah, either that the band has an attitude or doesn't want to drive 50 miles, play for 4 hours, for next to nothing. I know, paying your dues, yada yada. I've been paying my dues the last 6 months, practicing, rehearsing, not making a dime, yet.

Myself, I would play for $200 just to get out there, but there are three other guys in this band. I haven't got the go-ahead to play for $200 yet. It may be forthcoming if I can't get any gigs at $300 +

And $400/negotiable is high for four 45 minute sets? Maybe it is for a band just starting out. No one is hiring us.

[sedan_dad]

With your additude and arrogance I don't think you'll ever break into the bar circut.
The purpose of a band is to make money for the bar owner.
You can't even sell yourself to the bar owner long enough for them to listen to your demo.
You need a complete demo package to give to the bar owners to listen to at their leisure.
Making them listen to your only copy is really rinky dink.
Have a CD in a nice colorful jacket.
Color photos of the band.
A list of previous jobs.
Reviews from the paper.
The package needs to sell your band after you've left.
You need to come across as a professional muscian and not some newbe.
Bar owners deal with bands on a weekly basis.
They know what kind of package to expect from a professional band.
Your not delivering it.
Look to do opening slots with some established local bands.
You say your band has been at it 6 months? That ain't nothing. Why should the bar owner foot the bill for you to prove yourselfs. Do HIM the favor.Do a opening spot.
Stay sober,act professional.

[Double Agent]

Originally Posted by Busker

Yeah, either that the band has an attitude or doesn't want to drive 50 miles, play for 4 hours, for next to nothing. I know, paying your dues, yada yada. I've been paying my dues the last 6 months, practicing, rehearsing, not making a dime, yet.

Myself, I would play for $200 just to get out there, but there are three other guys in this band. I haven't got the go-ahead to play for $200 yet. It may be forthcoming if I can't get any gigs at $300 +

And $400/negotiable is high for four 45 minute sets? Maybe it is for a band just starting out. No one is hiring us.

I'm telling you....offer to do him a freebie. These guys love to get free stuff. You can't think of it as 1 show for free. You need to consider whats best in the long run. Tell him, this one is free and next time you get paid. Allow yourself to negotiate even after the 1st show. For real, if you've never played live that means you have no following. Its not likely your family and friends will drink thousands of dollars worth of alcohol (I hope not anyways).

Go play that free show as if you're getting paid a million bucks. A week or two later, ask him how he did. You will know if he tries to BS you. If you do well, you will likely get asked back. And tell him, even before the free show, that if he hires you back he will have to pay you something.

When you play the free show, walk around during your breaks, shake hands, start an emailing list with everyone who likes you and email them when you play anywhere ever again. Ask them to email their friends. This is how you build a following. When you have a following, you make more money for the bar, and you get to ask for more money. If you look at it like a business (which it is, BTW), you will see that a free show can have lots of value because if you're good at what you do, you will make a lot more in the long run. Just like any business in town might do some big sale where they lose their @$$ at their grand opening, just to get people in the door. With the idea of attracting repeat customers so that they are profitable in the end.

The only alternative I see if you're not getting gigs is to ask him to set a $3 cover charge at the door and ask for 100% of it. It won't be much in all likelihood, but its better than nothing. Again, its no money out of his pocket (the greedy bastard will probably like the sound of this ) and you get paid a little and get a chance to establish a following.

Another BTW, if you each get $50 for a four set show, it equates to a little more than $10/hour.....to play music. There are far worse jobs IME.

[ric1312]

You need to think of it from the bar owners shoes.

The first thing is how much will they make.

Sure some care if you are actually good, but most only care about: 1.Draw. 2.How much the bar makes.

To make 300 just to pay you, you'd have to have at least 20 people who spent 15 dollars each on drinks. So, to make money and make it worth their while double those figures, there is other overhead as well.

Best thing to say is we will play for the door, and have a 3-5 dollar cover charge. Then schedule 1-2 months in advance and go there as much as you can and promote to the regulars and get your own people there. Promote the hell out of it.

Now if you really are a good band and get out there and get a following and can guarantee you will fill a joint, that is the kind of thing you need to be able to say to have the leverage to get 3-500 upfront.

If you just want gigs and aren't worried about pay (right now you really shouldn't be)..... Jam nights, never fail to get my band invited to play an actual gig. We usually take the opening slot as we dont' have a huge draw and are honest about it up front. With promotion we can get the odd 20-50 poeple without making a full time job out of promotion.

You really can't demand a flat price unless it's a party, or you can guarantee x amount of drinkers.

As a cover band, unless you are something special, it's unlikely you will ever gain that kind of following. What I mean by something special, is a good tribute to a hot act, have a hot chick lead singer, or a really great singer that can nail really hard to sing songs like zep/audioslave/queensryche/dreamtheatre...... something different.

And as an all original act it's even a more uphill battle, as you don't have the advantage of playing songs people know.

From what you've said about what you play, it sounds like it's the same as most other cover acts. Songs people know probably played well, but nothing they can't hear somewhere else. In other words you aren't giving people any real motivation to come to a bar across town when they can likely see the same type of thing at their usual watering hole.

If you are the typical 3-5 guys covering songs then it's unlikely you will ever get enough of a following with a cover band to be more than one of the opening band who draws the odd 20-50 people.

[Busker]

Originally Posted by sedan_dad

With your additude and arrogance...

Whoa. All I said was I thought we were better than some bands already out there, and that I didn't want to play too cheaply. In the next post I said I didn't have a problem playing for $200 if the rest of the band would go along with it. They passed up a free gig that might have given us some exposure a couple of weeks ago, that I was willing to do - they decided against it.

And I said in the first paragraph of the first post that the demo I had wasn't enough, that I needed some kind of package to hand out. Even I know that despite my inexperience. But so far, the rest of the band hasn't discussed how we are going to pay for professional promo package with 8x10 glossies and all that.

[Busker]

Originally Posted by Busker

Whoa. All I said was I thought we were better than some bands already out there...

I mean bar bands, cover bands. I've seen some of what's out there. Some of them aren't any better than us, except that they are established, working bands.

[JOHNNY CHINGAS]

Originally Posted by Busker

Whoa. All I said was I thought we were better than some bands already out there, and that I didn't want to play too cheaply. In the next post I said I didn't have a problem playing for $200 if the rest of the band would go along with it. They passed up a free gig that might have given us some exposure a couple of weeks ago, that I was willing to do - they decided against it.

And I said in the first paragraph of the first post that the demo I had wasn't enough, that I needed some kind of package to hand out. Even I know that despite my inexperience. But so far, the rest of the band hasn't discussed how we are going to pay for professional promo package with 8x10 glossies and all that.

When youre just starting out, if you get enough money to cover your rehearsal space and transportation youre ahead of the game.

[Busker]

Originally Posted by JOHNNY CHINGAS

When youre just starting out, if you get enough money to cover your rehearsal space and transportation youre ahead of the game.

So I'm finding out.

Sedan Dad, no, I meant I've been practicing and/or rehearsing for 6 months. I've only been with this band for going on 2 months. Not much time, true.

I just got off the phone with the singer, told him what I thought - that we'd have to play some cheap or even free gigs, to start, and that we needed a real promo package. The band will discuss it next rehearsal.

[driver800]

Originally Posted by Busker

...except that they are established, working bands.

BINGO!!! I'm in a cover band that's been together for almost 4 years. We have a loyal following and a good reputation with club owners. It's a 6-piece band with talented, mature, musicians, a great male singer, a very cute young blonde female singer, lights, fog, PA, etc...

We get paid more than just about any cover band around, but it took us a long time and a lot of effort to get there. We rented clubhouses and hosted our own parties. We played open mics, charity gigs and Battle-of-the-Bands. We promoted ourselves, got people to gigs, built an email list, a website, myspace friends list and everything else that goes along with it.

When we started as a band, $300-$400 was a rare luxury. Remember, that's a 6 piece band that also tipped the soundman and paid a friend $20 to help with setup and run lights.

6 months? You're just getting started. Even (our) 4 years is not very long. The guys in your band need a reality check.

Decide what you want and then determine if you are willing to do the things necessary to get it. That's it.

[Mike Money]

Busker, I work at a venue, so listen in.



New bands are NOTHING but a risk to us no matter how "good" they are.


We dont care if you are good, we care if you are gonna get people in the door.

Thats why venues book crappy bands so often. Crappy bands have loyal friends.


You have to be able to make a venue money before we are going to BE ABLE to pay you and still pay our own bills.

[Busker]

Originally Posted by Mike Money

Thats why venues book crappy bands so often. Crappy bands have loyal friends.

Just wondering why crappy bands have loyal friends?

[Chunk-O-Funk]

What Mike said it pretty much it in a nut shell.

If you're a new band, the one and only thing they care about is how many alcohol drinking patrons you and the rest of your band are going to bring.

Being a good band is only a plus to them. Trying to sell them solely on that wont get you that far. If you don't have much of a following, you pretty much take the best deal you can get and build a following. If you can absolutely deliver on a promise of a X amount of people showing up you can take a low offer and ask for a percentage of the door. If you do that, they better order more than soda or else it could backfire on you.

Of course you can't be that direct. Have a decent sounding/looking CD and some kind of a package that shows you have been around and not a bunch of rookies their first time out.

They don't care if you're better than Jesus.
However, they do care if you have a following as big as Jesus.

[lpdeluxe]

My band played exactly ONE free gig. We will play a bar for whatever they will pay, and then negotiate once the manager or whomever sees that we draw a large, dancing, enthusiastic crowd.

One dance hall/beer joint we played has a strict rule, that the first time a new (to them) band plays, they are scheduled for Friday night at a reduced rate. Once a band proves itself, they are invited back for a Saturday night gig at the going rate.

You've got to sell yourself: a demo is OK, but the guy in charge wants to see how you interact with the crowd, whether you drink up the fee, and how much of a draw you're going to be.

If you are just starting out, it's a buyer's market.

For what it's worth, we are all in our late 50s and have been playing since we were teenagers. Don't let ego keep you out of beginning (low paying) jobs. Everybody starts somewhere.

[JOHNNY CHINGAS]

Originally Posted by Busker

So I'm finding out.

Sedan Dad, no, I meant I've been practicing and/or rehearsing for 6 months. I've only been with this band for going on 2 months. Not much time, true.

I just got off the phone with the singer, told him what I thought - that we'd have to play some cheap or even free gigs, to start, and that we needed a real promo package. The band will discuss it next rehearsal.

Remember, play because you love it. Everything else is gravy.



Hope I dont sound too preachy, but thats how I really feel.-Good Luck!

[hbarcat]

There's golden advice flowing from these posts!



My cover band is similar to yours but we've been together for more than 2 years (and the guitarist and I each have more than 20 years of gigging experience) and we're still regularly doing free gigs for the essential purpose of building up our fan base and getting exposure. Every band pretty much starts out at the bottom.

We just did a one hour set, July 8th at a town festival where they paid the headlining act $2000, the supporting act $800 and three other bands (including us) $0. We considered the show a huge success for us for these reasons:
1) Lots of people heard us and a lot of people told us that they really enjoyed themselves.
2) The entertainment committee chairwoman was impressed with us (partly because a lot of people told her they enjoyed us and partly because we enthusiastically read off the names of the festival sponsors and promoted other events for her between songs which the other 'free' acts didn't do) and made it a point to say she would consider us to be good candidates for the supporting act ($800) for next year.
3) We made it a point to schmooze with everyone, like the guys from the sound and stage companies and the other band members (I found out a guy from the headlining band owns a nearby music store that I patronize). We've got leads for at least 4 paying gigs just from these contacts.
4) A reporter for the local weekly paper interviewed us and took pictures of us playing (on a HUGE ass stage draped with sponsors' billboards). We'll get a bunch of those newspapers and use them for promoting ourselves for other venues.
5) We recorded the set on video and also high quality audio and we can use that for promotion, too, since it includes an audience applauding after every song. This shows booking managers that the band has the ability to hold an audience.



This doesn't mean we take every opportunity to do free shows. We turned down an "offer" to do a big private party with 10 kegs of beer because we would only be receiving free beer as payment, and we would be expected to play 4 one hour sets (until 2AM) and lug our own PA, subs, power amps etc.. We figured it wasn't worth the trouble for a chug and stagger college party for mostly 18 to 25 year olds.

[Zappstorius]

Originally Posted by Busker

Whoa. All I said was I thought we were better than some bands already out there, and that I didn't want to play too cheaply. In the next post I said I didn't have a problem playing for $200 if the rest of the band would go along with it. They passed up a free gig that might have given us some exposure a couple of weeks ago, that I was willing to do - they decided against it.

And I said in the first paragraph of the first post that the demo I had wasn't enough, that I needed some kind of package to hand out. Even I know that despite my inexperience. But so far, the rest of the band hasn't discussed how we are going to pay for professional promo package with 8x10 glossies and all that.

You probably are better than some of the bands in the area. But what does that mean in music? Listen to the radio someday, you're probably better than some of those bands too. But no one knows that you are good. So you need to suck it up, play some cheap (or even free) gigs. Play in everything that you can: battle of the bands, open mic nights, opening slots at local clubs etc. Exposure baby, exposure.