What Constitues Songwriting?

[agreatheight]

I am currently in the beginning of recording an EP. I have written all 5 songs, basic guitar parts / bass parts / melodies / lyrics / basic drum parts. Drums have been tracked against scratch tracks. We are currently comping the drums and getting prepped to record the bass and then the guitars. The guitarist I am playing with wants to expand the songs a bit - add some parts in the form of layers and leads.

So the question is what is songwriting? Would this count as songwriting? I do not want to lose control of the material in any way... will his additions jeopardize this?

I don't think that we as a band are going to get famous / rich, but I do think that maybe I could get a song on a TV show / movie / commercial, maybe get an indie deal, now or later.

Any well informed insight or links would be appreciated.

[lowfreq33]

The lyrics, melody, and chord structure are typically what constitutes "the song". If there's a signature lick (like the guitar lick in "Layla") it might count, but it really depends on the song and the people working on it.

[BruceWane]

Originally Posted by agreatheight

So the question is what is songwriting? Would this count as songwriting? I do not want to lose control of the material in any way... will his additions jeopardize this?

Any significant contribution to melody or structure. A guitar solo and/or adding "layers" would be something that is done on top of an existing song structure, i.e. not "songwriting". If he contributes a significantly different chord structure to use for a lead break, that is contributing to the overall structure of the song and would be "songwriting".

If I were you, I'd be more concerned about turning out good material than "keeping control". If you collaborate with someone who makes real contributions that make your songs better, give them credit. Most songwriters benefit from collaboration. Lennon/McCartney, Jagger/Richards, Plant/Page, Tyler/Perry, etc............... even seasoned songwriters will often bring in an outside influence to bring a new spark to their work. Aerosmith brought in Desmond Child and came back bigger than they were their first time around, Glenn Ballard has worked with multiple artists, Linda Perry has worked with multiple artists, etc.

[agreatheight]

Thanks for the input lowfreq and BruceWane.

Bruce, I agree that collaboration is a good thing and I am usually all for it, but for this project I am most interested in keeping control of the songs, regardless of the outcomes.

[mr.hughes]

I've been on both sides of this question. Are you compensating the guitar player in any way - ie: paying him for the sessions? If not, then if you're asking him to contribute to your recordings in any way, then my opinion is that it's only right that you give him a songwriting credit in order that he may be compensated further down the road.

I know this is a contentious issue, with the songwriting side usually arguing to the death to keep all royalties to themselves. I bring up the issue of compensation simply because I don't believe it's morally right to ask someone to help you if you have no intention of thanking them for it (and 'thanking' being a form of payment). I know, I'm an idiotic idealist in this way

My attitude is that while songwriters argue that it's their songs, I argue that it's my bass playing.

[agreatheight]

For me, this has nothing to do with royalties. I could really care less about the money, and honestly, I do not see this as a profitable endeavor.

The way I understand it (and someone correct me if I am wrong) is payment comes three ways - straight payment, songwriting royalties and performance royalties. Straight payment pays a flat fee and that musician will not get any further payment. Songwriting royalties pay for cash made on the song regardless of who records it. Performance royalties pay only for cash made on the specific recording the person played on.

In this case, the drummer was paid a flat, straight payment, and the guitarist is going to get a performance royalty. This was at their individual requests.

Maybe this will help to clarify - I was initially going to pay session players to do the work on the EP that I could not handle, and give them straight payments. The guitarist I am working with really liked the material and asked to get in on it, and I said OK. So now I am trying to get a line defined between session playing, performance and songwriting. I want him to express himself and get something out of the recording on an artistic level, but not at the sacrifice of losing control of the songs. Does that make sense?

[archer121]

Sounds to me like you just want to be the guy whose name's attached to it and don't want to share the spotlight. Don't get me wrong, this isn't necessarily a bad thing. For example, if you are a solo artist who has hired a band to help bring his artistic vision to life then you may not want another person adding their paint to your pallet. Too much outside influence will dilute your work and turn it into something other than what you intended. However, if you are all a band and you guys are supposedly putting this together as a group then you're just being an ass.

[jmac]

Originally Posted by BruceWane

Any significant contribution to melody or structure. A guitar solo and/or adding "layers" would be something that is done on top of an existing song structure, i.e. not "songwriting". If he contributes a significantly different chord structure to use for a lead break, that is contributing to the overall structure of the song and would be "songwriting".

This is a really good explanation.

Originally Posted by BruceWane

If I were you, I'd be more concerned about turning out good material than "keeping control". If you collaborate with someone who makes real contributions that make your songs better, give them credit. Most songwriters benefit from collaboration. Lennon/McCartney, Jagger/Richards, Plant/Page, Tyler/Perry, etc............... even seasoned songwriters will often bring in an outside influence to bring a new spark to their work. Aerosmith brought in Desmond Child and came back bigger than they were their first time around, Glenn Ballard has worked with multiple artists, Linda Perry has worked with multiple artists, etc.

This is really good advice.

[agreatheight]

Wow. OK.

I am not a solo artist, per se, but this is not a band either. It's a recording project. The drummer is in Tennessee. The guitarist is soon to be in California. I am in AZ, but will likely be in NY by the end of the year. The singer we are looking at is in Florida. We will likely not play any shows, maybe a one off. Unless something weird happens, but you can't count anything out.

Look, I wrote some songs and wanted to record them, that's it. However, in the course of getting this started, more attention has come to the project and now people are tying to help and get involved, and something simple has gotten complicated. This was not my intention, but crap happens.

I thought maybe get a tune on TV or into a movie, if it turned out good. It looks like it is going to be pretty good, and that maybe some things are possible. We'll see.

This has nothing to do with ego or money, or me being an ass. I just want to protect what is mine, and make decisions about it.

[Crazyeelboy]

It looks like you got a pretty good answer to your question about what counts as songwriting. I hope the project works out as you want it to.

[jmattbassplaya]

Originally Posted by agreatheight

Wow. OK.

I am not a solo artist, per se, but this is not a band either. It's a recording project. The drummer is in Tennessee. The guitarist is soon to be in California. I am in AZ, but will likely be in NY by the end of the year. The singer we are looking at is in Florida. We will likely not play any shows, maybe a one off. Unless something weird happens, but you can't count anything out.

Look, I wrote some songs and wanted to record them, that's it. However, in the course of getting this started, more attention has come to the project and now people are tying to help and get involved, and something simple has gotten complicated. This was not my intention, but crap happens.

I thought maybe get a tune on TV or into a movie, if it turned out good. It looks like it is going to be pretty good, and that maybe some things are possible. We'll see.

This has nothing to do with ego or money, or me being an ass. I just want to protect what is mine, and make decisions about it.

Originally Posted by Crazyeelboy

It looks like you got a pretty good answer to your question about what counts as songwriting. I hope the project works out as you want it to.

Obviously this is somewhat of an ego issue if you just want your name getting credit for a song that you want to potentially put in a movie or on TV - and that`s OK! The thing is that you should of been much more straightforward about what you wanted out of this project from the start. Everyone is just telling you how it is now, and unfortunately what you wanted isn`t 100% possible now since the guitarist is having notable contributions in the work. But anyways, if you`re so worried about it being your name (alone) on the finished product then be willing to admit that this is a monetary/ego issue. If it weren`t then this wouldn`t be a problem.

I`ll be the first to admit that I`m already having problems with my guitarist presenting songs to our new band as "his" when I had a hand in writing chord progressions. It is an ego (and potentially monetary) issue because I want to receive credit where it is do, regardless of it being good or bad. If anything, your guitarist might be in a similar boat as me if he`s playing a role in writing out progressions or melodies... You better figure out what you can live with and talk to him about it.

[WalterBush]

I attended a conference which included several songwriters that I respected.

Their definition is that songwriting is lyrics and melody; even chord structure is an arrangement issue, not songwriting. Otherwise, a singer changing the key of a song that the guitarist wrote would be considered a songwriter.

What you're asking for is a legal definition, it sounds like. When you submit your songs for copyright, etc, this is an issue that should be sorted out in advance, i.e. tell them it's your gig before they record a note, so there's no argument later. This is one reason that so many songs' sheet music bears so little resemblance to the finished product; the songwriter copyrighted the song long before the recording process started. Your recording buddies want album credit or a percentage of the royalties? Fine, but that's not the same as songwriting credit in the eyes of the law.

If you're worried about it, pony up the dough to consult a lawyer, or look it up yourself. It's the kind of information that could serve you well your entire career, not just in this instance, after all.

[Munjibunga]

Originally Posted by mr.hughes

I've been on both sides of this question. Are you compensating the guitar player in any way - ie: paying him for the sessions? If not, then if you're asking him to contribute to your recordings in any way, then my opinion is that it's only right that you give him a songwriting credit in order that he may be compensated further down the road.

I know this is a contentious issue, with the songwriting side usually arguing to the death to keep all royalties to themselves. I bring up the issue of compensation simply because I don't believe it's morally right to ask someone to help you if you have no intention of thanking them for it (and 'thanking' being a form of payment). I know, I'm an idiotic idealist in this way

My attitude is that while songwriters argue that it's their songs, I argue that it's my bass playing.

The agreement for compensation should be finalized and agreed upon before the track goes down. If the player's input becomes the hook or a major influence on the flavor of the song, writing credits may be appropriate. Tommy Shannon got writing credits for his work on SRV's "Crossfire" because the bass line was a big part of the song.

[Moe Monsarrat]

Lyrics & melody.....if you wrote those two things you wrote it all. Unless someone invents a "signature figure" that's a very integral part of the song, lyrics & melody are all that counts. My former band mate Mike Kindred wrote "Cold Shot" for SRV (who was a friend of mine also). W. C. Clark was playing bass for Triple Threat (SRV's band before the big record deal) & he changed the bass line from a walking line to what you hear on the record. Mike gave him credit & both those guys have done well with that song. Mike & I recorded the song years later & I put the walking line back on that record. I didn't get any credit for that.....

[ilovethesechord]

Man, It's easy. Give credit where credit is due.

Example:

Track 1: You're All Over
agreathieght

Guitar: agreathieght
Bass: ------
Guitar -----
Drums -----

Track 2: Many Times
agreathieght, Mr. Manchoo

guitar : agreathieght
Bass: Whoever recordedbass
Drums : whoever recorded drums
Lead Guitar: whoever recorded the lead guitar


ETC......

Then, at the Credtis section, where you list thanks, studios recorded at, etc. Simply put, "All songs written and arranged by agreathieght copywrite 2010"

This way, anybody who actually cares "WHO WROTE" the songs will know. They will also see that many individuals helped bring the songs to life, and if a certain lead riff sticks out that was not yours, any concerned party would know who is responsible for the riff/drumfill/bassline/verse/chorus.

Hope this helps,
Trent

[Music Attorney]

Originally Posted by agreatheight

I am currently in the beginning of recording an EP. I have written all 5 songs, basic guitar parts / bass parts / melodies / lyrics / basic drum parts. Drums have been tracked against scratch tracks. We are currently comping the drums and getting prepped to record the bass and then the guitars. The guitarist I am playing with wants to expand the songs a bit - add some parts in the form of layers and leads.

So the question is what is songwriting? Would this count as songwriting? I do not want to lose control of the material in any way... will his additions jeopardize this?

I don't think that we as a band are going to get famous / rich, but I do think that maybe I could get a song on a TV show / movie / commercial, maybe get an indie deal, now or later.

Any well informed insight or links would be appreciated.

I’ve posted fairly extensively on this topic already so I won’t elaborate too much except to say:

1. Myself and most of my colleagues would tell you that in the U.S. you make a copyrightable contribution to a song by contributing an original melody or lyric. As for those of my colleagues who disagree and feel other contributions also qualify, I often wonder if they would actually render a legal opinion in writing for use in litigation such that if they turned out to be wrong the client might have a claim of malpractice against them. As always comes up in this discussion, I’m not debating what should be a copyrightable contribution. I’m merely stating my understanding of what is under U.S. law.

2. For your purposes, the “jeopardize” comment may be more important than a technical understanding of what legally entitles a person to a piece of the copyright in a composition. The situation you’re describing above just seems ripe for creating a problem (regardless of legalities) unless handled properly. I’ve posted examples before about clients who had to give up a piece of their song to someone who claimed they wrote part of the client’s song because the client was unable to prove the person didn’t contribute (or at least didn’t have enough evidence to risk the expense and time of fighting the claim in court). Courts have no interest in getting into a he said/she said fight over who wrote a song and I almost always counsel a client to settle if they don’t have pretty good evidence that the person didn’t contribute.

The good news is that you can obtain very good protection for yourself by simply having individuals (or everyone) sign a piece of paper with the song title(s) and their respective agreed-upon contribution next to their name (e.g., 50-50, 25-25-25-25, 65-25-15, 75-25-0-0, or whatever). Alternatively, you can have individuals sign a piece of paper stating they did not make a contribution to the musical compositions entitled “_____”, “_______” etc.

Not sure if they’ll agree to sign something or if bringing up the issue will derail the project, but you can minimize (and possibly eliminate) the “legal” and “jeopardy” questions by simply doing what I suggest above. To be clear, my post is designed to help you maintain control of the copyright in your songs with a minimum of legal niceties. That is, it’s a practical solution. Whether the players “deserve” a piece of the song or are “entitled” to one is something that’s taken up considerable bandwidth on this website and you can read through those postings and make your own decision.

Best,
MA