what does it take to get touring?

[scorpionldr]

it's a question that's been rolling around in my head, and I desperately want to tour with any group, whether it be me in my car with a few amps to crank out my own one man band or if it's a band that's got things together. how do bands work from local shows to getting small tours, to getting large tours?

[invader3k]

Honestly, not trying to be rude...but if you have that many questions about it, you're probably not at the point where touring is a realistic option...unless the idea of living out of your car and making no money is appealing to you.

[bassbrock]

Originally Posted by invader3k

Honestly, not trying to be rude...but if you have that many questions about it, you're probably not at the point where touring is a realistic option...unless the idea of living out of your car and making no money is appealing to you.

Huh? What's wrong with LIVING IN A VAN, DOWN BY THE RIVER?

[T-Bird]

Hi, scorpionldr

This may sound stupid also, but it takes just one thing: Dedication. You leave pretty much everything else on the background and focus to that goal.

It'll pay off. Not moneywise but You'll have a whole new perspective towards doing something worthwile.

And living on the road, "if not in a van, by the river", is a wonderful experience also. Done that, love it.
Specially here in the north where we spend at least 4 months a year in temperatures below freezing

Regards
Sam

[SundanceChile]

Originally Posted by invader3k

Honestly, not trying to be rude...but if you have that many questions about it, you're probably not at the point where touring is a realistic option...unless the idea of living out of your car and making no money is appealing to you.

Ummm, all people have to start somewhere IIRC...

Originally Posted by T-Bird

Hi, scorpionldr

This may sound stupid also, but it takes just one thing: Dedication. You leave pretty much everything else on the background and focus to that goal.

It'll pay off. Not moneywise but You'll have a whole new perspective towards doing something worthwile.

And living on the road, "if not in a van, by the river", is a wonderful experience also. Done that, love it.
Specially here in the north where we spend at least 4 months a year in temperatures below freezing

Regards
Sam

+1 to all said here, except for the fact that's it a lot easier to pull off the "van by the river" in California!

[invader3k]

Yes, everyone needs to start out somewhere...but there's a big difference between rehearsing in a garage and playing at local bars, and going out on the road to "tour."

[Chili]

i would love to get a band together or join a already tight band and go touring, and the living in your van down by the river sounds nice lol, i love doing things like that, although i havnt since i was young and going comping alot but that wasnt with a band, mabe someday ill get in the right band whos dedicated and is willing to take chances, as impossible as that might sound....

[scorpionldr]

Originally Posted by invader3k

Honestly, not trying to be rude...but if you have that many questions about it, you're probably not at the point where touring is a realistic option...unless the idea of living out of your car and making no money is appealing to you.

in response to your statement: After five years with a failed attempt at what the public might call a band of select few, and having written what I feel in my opinion, to be great music for the "scene" I was always trying to push the envelope beyond, I question what kept us from gigging, the forming of the hypothesis to "what was the last straw". If it was the shyness involved with having an unfortunate (some might call it half-@$$ed) lineup, if it was the fact that we were playing fast-paced noise-core that often rivaled the post-hardcore breakdown focused public....exactly what it was is unknown to me.
but now, more or less working alone, and considering seeing things beyond what's infront of me, questions like "well is it lined up to begin with, is it guerrilla gigging (random gigs from any suitable area), is it setting up appointments with all local bars around the area" that come across in organizing gigs, because that's exactly what I lack: self planned gigs

[Dave Muscato]

Originally Posted by scorpionldr

how do bands work from local shows to getting small tours, to getting large tours?

My humble opinion, since you asked...

First of all, you don't "get" small tours, or any tours, for that matter. You create them. There is no such thing as luck - there is only hard work and perseverance. You create your circumstances and the quality of your life is directly dependent on how much you put into it. Playing music professionally is hard work. Think of it like opening a restaurant, or running a marathon. You don't just "get" a successful restaurant or a 4-hour marathon. New restaurants owners spend something like 16 hours a day at their restaurants for the first year. Even so, 90% of new restaurants fail within 3 years. Of those that remain, 90% of those are gone within 5 years. If you try to run a 4-hour marathon without training, you will drop dead. You have to build up to success. Any successes or failings are your fault and your fault alone. Like the famous line, "All men are self-made, it's just that only the successful ones will admit it."

This is a very important mindset for a career in music. Not trying to be an ass, it's just that this is top priority, before you get into the specifics of how it's done, you have to understand why you're doing it. 99.99999% of bands fizzle into nothingness. You have to want it more than anything else, and so do your other bandmates, if you're going to make it happen (notice I didn't say, if it's going to happen for you!)

I'm presuming your talking mostly original music, as cover bands, unless they're tribute bands, tend not to tour...

You play as many shows as humanly possible. Paid, unpaid, pay-to-play (not too many of those), whatever you can get. Eventually, if your music is any good, and you have a decent image, people will start to remember who you are and want to come see you again specifically. This could take a few years.

At this point, you can start charging enough to cover your expenses and have some left over (if you're playing any covers, this could overlap the "few years" part above). Depending on how good you are at marketing, promotion, and sales, this could take less time.

Then, start branching out to nearby towns that have some overlap with your market - around here, Columbia, MO, that means Jeff City (30 min away), Fayette (45 min), Osage Beach (1.5 hours), and St Louis & Kansas City (2 hours away, each, in opposite directions). IME, you'll start out playing free (or perhaps enough to cover your expenses) in the new markets for awhile, until again, you have built up a following. By now, you should be playing twice a week in a different city each time.

For Columbia, MO based bands like ours, that means, for example, over 1 month:

Week 1 Friday: Columbia
Week 1 Saturday: Fayette
Back to day jobs in Columbia
Week 2 Friday: Jeff City
Week 2 Saturday: Osage Beach
Back to day jobs in Columbia
Week 3 Friday: Warrensburg
Week 3 Saturday: KC
Back to day jobs in Columbia
Week 4 Friday: Chesterfield
Week 4 Saturday: St Louis
Back to day jobs in Columbia
- Repeat -

All of these towns are within two hours of where we live, so we can drive back the same night w/o having to worry about hotels or anything like that.

Once you have 6-8 places with followings, you can book a 2-week circuit, playing every night or every other night (standing gigs of 2 nights in a row are nice if you can get 'em). There's your small tour. Unless you have a decent following and are selling a good number of CDs, you will probably lose money doing this. IMO, you should have at least 2-3 albums out, as a band, before you try a circuit tour. You lose money playing shows; you make it back by selling your CDs. If you just have one album to sell, you might gross $150 for a show that cost you $200 to play, as far as gas and overhead. If you have 2 or 3 or more albums available, new fans will probably buy your newest one, and fans who have seen you before & like your newest CD will try out your back catalogue. You might just net $50 or $100 if you can sell a few of 'em. If you have a good following, you might even spring for T-shirts. Definitely get stickers & buttons from the very beginning, though.

For longer tours, you'll realistically need more exposure than you can get working by yourselves. This calls for radio airplay, some regional and/or national press, and a good promoter & distributer. Also check out festivals & college bookings (fraternities and sororities love bands, and so do college "Activities Directors"). If you can schedule things right, you could end up with a nice 6-week stretch nationwide. At this point, you should probably be hooking up with an indie or minor label to help you handle the logistics.

There are a couple of good books about this if you want more info. Check out Jeri Goldstein; her book has been invaluable to us, and she writes a lot of free online articles, too.

http://www.amazon.com/How-Your-Own-B...8696176&sr=8-1

Hal Galper has a book that's also great; it's very much geared to jazz performers but it has a lot of useful stuff:

http://www.amazon.com/Touring-Musici...8696176&sr=8-1

Anything by Bob Baker is worth buying, IMHO:

http://www.amazon.com/Guerrilla-Musi...8696176&sr=8-1

Do this for a couple years, sell 5k or 10k albums, and the majors might just start sniffing around. IMO, *do not* go after the majors. You will get a crappy deal. They'll come to you when you're ready. Majors don't do artist development anymore. It's too expensive and takes too long (for bands - pop is another story). They want you to do all the work and bring them a following and a track-record of strong CD sales. It also helps if they know that you're serious about doing this long-term and have a good business sense (otherwise, you wouldn't have gotten to this point!). If a major picks you up, depending on how the deal is set up, they'll arrange the touring for you, and it's around the world you go.

Hope this helps.

- Dave

[tzadik]

I have found that, at first, the main thing it takes is $$$. Because travel is expensive and MOST gigs don't pay all that great. Especially if no one knows who you are yet.

One thing to practice doing, to get used to touring, if pick a place nearby, and put on a shwo there. Rent a Lion's Club or a Grange or whatever. Experience the joy of trying to get people who know you to come - it's very hard. You have to get pretty creative with ways to get people in the door, paying money, buying your cd and merch, etc. because they will not come unless something is really in it for them.

Now imagine trying to get your promotional tactics happening from hundreds/thousands of miles away. It takes lots and lots of time, money, street teamers, and group effort. And then once you get on the road, it takes a trusty vehicle, patience and tolerance with bandmembers/club owners/EVERYONE, anger management skills from all parties, an amazing snese of humor even when you don't feel like it, etc etc etc

[Dave Muscato]

Originally Posted by tzadik

I have found that, at first, the main thing it takes is $$$... an amazing sense of humor...

+1

Budget losing $100 per show outside of your hometown, $50 inside it, if you're playing for the door only. When you get a bigger marquee value and can get club owners to agree to flats (guaranteed minimums), say, for $100, go ahead and budget for breaking even. You make your net on CD sales, at least at first.

A sense of humor is probably more important than musical ability. Yep.

- Dave

[Chad.mundt]

Originally Posted by Dave Muscato

My humble opinion, since you asked...

First of all, you don't "get" small tours, or any tours, for that matter. You create them. There is no such thing as luck - there is only hard work and perseverance. You create your circumstances and the quality of your life is directly dependent on how much you put into it. Playing music professionally is hard work. Think of it like opening a restaurant, or running a marathon. You don't just "get" a successful restaurant or a 4-hour marathon. New restaurants owners spend something like 16 hours a day at their restaurants for the first year. Even so, 90% of new restaurants fail within 3 years. Of those that remain, 90% of those are gone within 5 years. If you try to run a 4-hour marathon without training, you will drop dead. You have to build up to success. Any successes or failings are your fault and your fault alone. Like the famous line, "All men are self-made, it's just that only the successful ones will admit it."

This is a very important mindset for a career in music. Not trying to be an ass, it's just that this is top priority, before you get into the specifics of how it's done, you have to understand why you're doing it. 99.99999% of bands fizzle into nothingness. You have to want it more than anything else, and so do your other bandmates, if you're going to make it happen (notice I didn't say, if it's going to happen for you!)

I'm presuming your talking mostly original music, as cover bands, unless they're tribute bands, tend not to tour...

You play as many shows as humanly possible. Paid, unpaid, pay-to-play (not too many of those), whatever you can get. Eventually, if your music is any good, and you have a decent image, people will start to remember who you are and want to come see you again specifically. This could take a few years.

At this point, you can start charging enough to cover your expenses and have some left over (if you're playing any covers, this could overlap the "few years" part above). Depending on how good you are at marketing, promotion, and sales, this could take less time.

Then, start branching out to nearby towns that have some overlap with your market - around here, Columbia, MO, that means Jeff City (30 min away), Fayette (45 min), Osage Beach (1.5 hours), and St Louis & Kansas City (2 hours away, each, in opposite directions). IME, you'll start out playing free (or perhaps enough to cover your expenses) in the new markets for awhile, until again, you have built up a following. By now, you should be playing twice a week in a different city each time.

For Columbia, MO based bands like ours, that means, for example, over 1 month:

Week 1 Friday: Columbia
Week 1 Saturday: Fayette
Back to day jobs in Columbia
Week 2 Friday: Jeff City
Week 2 Saturday: Osage Beach
Back to day jobs in Columbia
Week 3 Friday: Warrensburg
Week 3 Saturday: KC
Back to day jobs in Columbia
Week 4 Friday: Chesterfield
Week 4 Saturday: St Louis
Back to day jobs in Columbia
- Repeat -

All of these towns are within two hours of where we live, so we can drive back the same night w/o having to worry about hotels or anything like that.

Once you have 6-8 places with followings, you can book a 2-week circuit, playing every night or every other night (standing gigs of 2 nights in a row are nice if you can get 'em). There's your small tour. Unless you have a decent following and are selling a good number of CDs, you will probably lose money doing this. IMO, you should have at least 2-3 albums out, as a band, before you try a circuit tour. You lose money playing shows; you make it back by selling your CDs. If you just have one album to sell, you might gross $150 for a show that cost you $200 to play, as far as gas and overhead. If you have 2 or 3 or more albums available, new fans will probably buy your newest one, and fans who have seen you before & like your newest CD will try out your back catalogue. You might just net $50 or $100 if you can sell a few of 'em. If you have a good following, you might even spring for T-shirts. Definitely get stickers & buttons from the very beginning, though.

For longer tours, you'll realistically need more exposure than you can get working by yourselves. This calls for radio airplay, some regional and/or national press, and a good promoter & distributer. Also check out festivals & college bookings (fraternities and sororities love bands, and so do college "Activities Directors"). If you can schedule things right, you could end up with a nice 6-week stretch nationwide. At this point, you should probably be hooking up with an indie or minor label to help you handle the logistics.

There are a couple of good books about this if you want more info. Check out Jeri Goldstein; her book has been invaluable to us, and she writes a lot of free online articles, too.

http://www.amazon.com/How-Your-Own-B...8696176&sr=8-1

Gal Harper has a book that's also great; it's very much geared to jazz performers but it has a lot of useful stuff:

http://www.amazon.com/Touring-Musici...8696176&sr=8-1

Anything by Bob Baker is worth buying, IMHO:

http://www.amazon.com/Guerrilla-Musi...8696176&sr=8-1

Do this for a couple years, sell 5k or 10k albums, and the majors might just start sniffing around. IMO, *do not* go after the majors. You will get a crappy deal. They'll come to you when you're ready. Majors don't do artist development anymore. It's too expensive and takes too long (for bands - pop is another story). They want you to do all the work and bring them a following and a track-record of strong CD sales. It also helps if they know that you're serious about doing this long-term and have a good business sense (otherwise, you wouldn't have gotten to this point!). If a major picks you up, depending on how the deal is set up, they'll arrange the touring for you, and it's around the world you go.

Hope this helps.

- Dave

+1, Dave! No one else seems to have any clue what they're saying. You misspelled Hal Galper, though.

I especially recommend The Touring Musician by Hal Galper. Incredible resource and step by step guide to running your band as a small business and booking tours. It is told from the jazz musician's POV (which is great for me, but not everyone is a jazzer), but it will show you how to do it step-by-step. Be prepared, however, to devote hundreds of hours into getting that sort of business moving. That does not include the actual touring...

[Dave Muscato]

Originally Posted by Chad.mundt

+1, Dave! You misspelled Hal Galper, though...

Oops. Thanks!

Dave

[xshawnxearthx]

Originally Posted by scorpionldr

it's a question that's been rolling around in my head, and I desperately want to tour with any group, whether it be me in my car with a few amps to crank out my own one man band or if it's a band that's got things together. how do bands work from local shows to getting small tours, to getting large tours?

MYSPACE

[scorpionldr]

Originally Posted by xshawnxearthx

MYSPACE

yea, but if your band genuinely isn't popular, or the community mutually agrees you suck, your myspace self-promoting just lets people know you suck harder

[Spoiled Grape]

Dave hit it head on!

A good personality will take you much further than your music will, unless you are that lucky .0001% that gets picked up at some "showcase." Start small, book locally, talk and get to know EVERYONE. Fans, bartenders, bar owners, waitresses, security guards, promoters, other local bands, and any touring bands. Meet these people in other cities nearby you, and play those places. Expand, expand, expand.

My group does two minor circuits very regularly when we aren't doing anything "big." One includes a giant trip up north from So.Cal. to Southern Canada. The other includes a southwest trip from ca, nv, az, nm, co, and ut. You get trips like this going, and guess what, you are on tour before you even know it. The important thing is to not get hung up on it. To you it might be a huge tour for your band/your life, to the locals, it's just one show. If you visit a city in January, you better believe it that you need to visit that city by August.

[spunj13]

the band i'm in right now is just gearing up for a six-week tour... and we've learned it by doing.

we built ourselves up decently in the local area and then started farming out to slightly longer distances. when playing a more DIY (less bar-scene)... we've discovered that the minute you say you are on tour... there are a lot of bands that are willing to help. sometimes you play basement shows, sometimes venues, and sometimes National Guard Armorys or VFW Halls. it doesn't matter really... a lot of it is networking... sleeping on floors and putting on a memorable show (we've found that very important.) we've done two small tours so far and this will be our biggest. the first two were on our own... this third one is with two other bands (one larger than us, one smaller) we're doing the whole thing DIY... contacting bands in the areas that we're going to... etc.

another thing that might help with the money bit (as far as affording to GO on tour) is to have a show guarantee. granted... most places will probably not agree to it if they have no idea what/who you are... BUT... it gives you a jumping off point... a negotiation point at least.

lastly (at least from me)... know your market. i've played in a variety of styles of bands and the last few? wasn't sure even how to go about getting hardly many local gigs because the market just wasn't there for it. there IS always a market (don't get me wrong) you just have to know where to start.

so i guess... i closing... start locally... don't just jump into trying to tour... because there is a very very high chance it won't work... build up a fanbase first... then take that show on the road.

[spunj13]

[sedan_dad]

Dave 1000+

[redefine dave]

Trade shows with bands that are from areas you'd like to tour. That will help out quite a bit.