What "Keep It Simple" Really Means

[scottfeldstein]

You know what really makes me "cut back"? Hitting the RECORD button. Playing a live performance, or even just a rehearsal, with all the competing noise and mayhem, makes me feel a lot freer to improvise, add notes and just generally play harder. When I see the red light on, though...I know that I have to seriously be there holding down the rhythm and I don't have the luxury of acting crazy.

[cliffburtonfan]

Originally Posted by lowfreq33

Back in the day I played with a guitarist who loved pinch harmonics. Loooooooooved them. He was good at it too, could probably play an entire song with nothing but. And often did pretty much just that. Sounded terrible. He was operating under the assumption that if one is good, then 100 is great. And it was really annoying. But he just couldn't get it through his head that that "really cool thing" stops being cool when you hear it every other note. It's only cool when you do it once, in exactly the right spot.

Same with bass. That blistering run is so much more effective if you've spent the rest of the song holding down a solid groove. If the whole song is a chops fest it stops being impressive.

You played with Zakk Wylde????

[Fullback32]

Originally Posted by cliffburtonfan

You played with Zakk Wylde????

Ha...I was thinking the same thing!

[Clef_de_fa]

Originally Posted by DWBass

It's funny how many bassists come about this revelation. I have never had this issue! My learning years included listening to and playing along to records. If you really listen to what's going on, you will find mostly simplistic playing. Overplaying seems to be a 'new' thing! Back in the day we 'oldschoolers' always played what the song needed! Nothing more and nothing less!

I find the biggest issue with many, amatuer and weekend warrior, bands is that no one listens to each other. Everyone is in their own little world doing whatever they want in the name of 'creativity'! So now the music sounds so frikkin' cluttered and grooveless. Remember, it's a band! Work together and listen to each other!

Lastly, how do you think a cat like Nathan East got to play on so many records dating back to the 70's?? By playing what the song calls for! No more and no less!

The thing is ... what you think you should do in a song may differt from what I think. So what I contribute to a song or instrumental music may be too much for your taste but was obvious to me and it may be the case of my bandmates or your bandmates.

[DWBass]

Originally Posted by Clef_de_fa

The thing is ... what you think you should do in a song may differt from what I think. So what I contribute to a song or instrumental music may be too much for your taste but was obvious to me and it may be the case of my bandmates or your bandmates.

If it works then it falls in line with 'what the song needs, no more, no less'. You still have to remember, others are listening to these songs especially label A&R's (if you're trying to get a deal). It may sound good to you and your bandmates and the A&R guy may hate it! Been there, done that! Sometimes less is more but that's not etched in stone.

I've heard a ton of independent music that I thought would sound so much better if there wasn't so much going on!

[hip63]

I'm still such a noob on bass but the first thing I remembering be told on day 1 and I still hold true now is that "what you leave out is just as important as what you put in"

hip63

[scottfeldstein]

Originally Posted by hip63

"what you leave out is just as important as what you put in"

I think this principle applies to a wide variety of activities. You're a better writer when you learn to omit all words that aren't absolutely necessary. You make better personal electronic devices when you make bold decisions about what features not to put in them. (Just ask Apple.) Your presentation could probably be made better by the inclusion of one or two entirely blank slides. You're a more compelling speaker when you learn to pause more. You're likely a better musician when you learn the value of rests.

It's all very Zen.

[Clef_de_fa]

Originally Posted by DWBass

If it works then it falls in line with 'what the song needs, no more, no less'. You still have to remember, others are listening to these songs especially label A&R's (if you're trying to get a deal). It may sound good to you and your bandmates and the A&R guy may hate it! Been there, done that! Sometimes less is more but that's not etched in stone.

I've heard a ton of independent music that I thought would sound so much better if there wasn't so much going on!

It is still too vague and bound to personnal taste. Let's take the exemple of Dirty Loop, for me their cover are really good, for you the bass player may be wankery or play with taste but the original was also played with taste. An A&R may find the orginal "an endless gold mine" and the Dirty Loop too complex to sell but the band played what they like even if other find it too much ... who is right and who is wrong ? Who have good taste and who doesn't ?

You said that you heard a ton of independent music that you thought would sound so much better if there wasn't so much going on ... your taste tell you that, their taste tell them to put that much into it. who does really have good taste ??? no one

taste is bound to your talent, to the type of music you like, your philosophy in music, etc ... Like if I compose some music and I heard in my head some very extrem stuff but I can't pull it off, so I choose to play a simplier version of it. Do I have better taste for it or not ? Maybe the song would have been better if I could pull off what I had in mind, maybe in both case you would said it is too much and would have played something different to your taste etc.

[bassbully]

Originally Posted by famousbirds

My guitarist once asked me, "Did you ever hear the story about the working bassist?" I told him I hadn't, and told me about a conversation between a musician and a bassist.

Musician: So, I hear you play bass. Are you any good?

Bassist: Doodlelydoodlelyweedleweedleruckachuckachucka!

Musician: Sounds great! Want to play on my session?

Bassist: Dum, dum dum. Dum, dum dum. Dum, dum dum. Dum, da dum dum.

Musician: Here's your check!

Moral of the story: No matter how massive your chops, 90% of the time, the best thing for the song is to hold down the groove and support everyone else.

^ They should post this in every guitar center in bold print.

[tZer]

It's funny to me how some people perceive "simplicity". I seems to me that some people need to hear a very active bass line before they consider it at all. In other words, if the bass part doesn't immediately leap out of the speakers at them, the automatically dismiss it as a throw-away part.

As a result, they only think very active parts are "complex" and "challenging". I frequently find the opposite to be more true - that the truly in the pocket, under the radar, but clearly grooving lines are significantly challenging on so many levels and the super-active, in-your-face parts are really just a matter of learning how to throw your fingers at the strings quickly. Once you have the muscle memory, you can play those glitzy "complex" part almost like falling off a log - thus, "I'm a great player!".

But then challenge them to keep a solid, significantly less "active" pocket groove and they roll their eyes and go, "dum, dum, dum, dum..." in a rather metronomic, monochromatic fashion - and go, "See... There's your 'simple' part... boring, huh?" - then they say, "That's why I like active parts..." They think a simple, but effective groove is the same as uninspired and boring.

Yep - it is what you make it. Settling into the pocket and strategically synchronizing with the groove is a lot more difficult that it seems - but players write it off as simple because they think it's accomplished by just playing simplistically.

Kudos to the OP for learning this so early. It will serve you well.

[RBrownBass]

Originally Posted by CrewsControl

So, when do I get to the phase where I'm whipping out too many notes?

Originally Posted by DWBass

When your bandmates start complaining and when you stop getting positive feedback about your playing. Use your ears! Also, don't be selfish and use the old "I gotta be creative 'cause I hate boring basslines" line!

To all....no one is saying stand in the background and play root notes (unless the song calls for it). But don't add more than the song needs! More times than not, I hear guys playing notes that, harmonically and theoretically, don't even belong!

Originally Posted by Phalex

When you start losing gigs.

When the pianist, drummer and horn player start looking at you crazy.

Maybe this site needs genre forums. I dont know many bassists who'd play too much over either their solos or walking lines. I don't know too many who'd be reprimanded because they displayed their chops during a solo. I do know of some who wouldn't get work because their chops weren't up to different keys than they're used to playing (yes, that's a part of developing technique) or becaue they were too simple and root-based for the job.

It seems almost like the advice given here, applied as "general" is quite specific for the pop/rock/R&B/metal genre.

[scottfeldstein]

I know a guy who lost a position in a band. He lost it to me, a simple groove guy. His nickname in the band was "Noodle." I'll let you guess the details.

[KeithPas]

Originally Posted by RBrownBass

When the pianist, drummer and horn player start looking at you crazy.

Maybe this site needs genre forums. I dont know many bassists who'd play too much over either their solos or walking lines. I don't know too many who'd be reprimanded because they displayed their chops during a solo. I do know of some who wouldn't get work because their chops weren't up to different keys than they're used to playing (yes, that's a part of developing technique) or becaue they were too simple and root-based for the job.

It seems almost like the advice given here, applied as "general" is quite specific for the pop/rock/R&B/metal genre.

I think it comes across that way but I do not think it is intentional. Most people here play rock, blues, and pop so most naturally comment on the area they have experience in. What if you started soloing or playing an inappropriate bassline over your horn players solo? Even if you are a talented soloist you might get heat for that. I think it is about playing what is appropriate, not just simple or a bunch or great Jamerson lines would not be as great as they are because they sure are not simple.

[pklima]

Originally Posted by RBrownBass

When the pianist, drummer and horn player start looking at you crazy.

I wouldn't trust the tastes of other musicians. I think you're playing too many notes when you look out into the audience and don't see at least 60% women.

[RBrownBass]

Originally Posted by KeithPas

I think it comes across that way but I do not think it is intentional. Most people here play rock, blues, and pop so most naturally comment on the area they have experience in. What if you started soloing or playing an inappropriate bassline over your horn players solo? Even if you are a talented soloist you might get heat for that. I think it is about playing what is appropriate, not just simple or a bunch or great Jamerson lines would not be as great as they are because they sure are not simple.

Oh, absolutely.

I'm just saying that the guys who think they're grooving because their failure at chops and technique is more obvious... may not be grooving at all.

I'm reminded of an exchange I had with a guy who referred to the DB forum as a bunch of snobs because they want the discourse of that forum to remain about improvement beyond just getting paid to play. He mentioned how he decided to take Ray Brown as his musical hero. I'm thinking of a conversation in Heaven between Ray and NHOP about this guy...

NHOP: Remember that guy on TB who couldn't play like me, so he tried to play like you?

RB: Yeah... he didn't do that very well, either.

NHOP: I know, right? It probably never occurred to him that it'd be easier for him to play like me thru practice --thats what I did, and I got a few gigs-- than it would to have your special feel that even I acknowledge.

RB: Well, I don't know about that, but dude needs to shed. Right now, all he's doing is getting paid for gigs.

A guy with no chops and no ambition to improve isn't going to swing or groove his ass off, either. He'll just fool the drunk dancers. If he's cool with that and has nothing more to express on his instrument, I guess it's all good.

Point is.. I'd like to think we're not so egotistical or attention-starved that audience approval dictates our level of dedication to study and yes, technical improvement.

[RBrownBass]

I'll be the first to say that I've had my share of disappointing interaction with the DB forum (I'm primarily a DB player who spends more time here than there because EB gear is fun to talk about), but it's been because a self-appointed group of talented players have rebuffed me personally over bass topics that have nada to do with technique or theory. I'd never spar with them on things I know they know better than I.

[KeithPas]

Originally Posted by RBrownBass

I'll be the first to say that I've had my share of disappointing interaction with the DB forum (I'm primarily a DB player who spends more time here than there because EB gear is fun to talk about), but it's been because a self-appointed group of talented players have rebuffed me personally over bass topics that have nada to do with technique or theory. I'd never spar with them on things I know they know better than I.

I agree 100% although I think the vast majority of players that posted in this thread are experienced and seasoned players to one degree or another. DB forum is real cool but I don;t hang there much because I am not a DB player. The focus on actual music (theory, chord tones, ear training, playing over changes, transcribing) is something I strongly believe in.

[hernameisrio]

Originally Posted by puddin tame

hang on just a second buddy, chances are if you've only been playing a year and you think your playing is as hot as you describe you might get a few surprises if you could step back and hear it from the audience's ear

I'm not saying I'm some prodigy, I'm just saying that I've gotten many compliments on my playing from others and that I feel like I've made progress really quickly. So I don't know about "surprises." I've heard myself on sessions and on rehearsal recordings and I'm always picking out what needs work and what sounds good. This is the first thing I've picked up on in my life in quite some time where I've actually felt completely confident of my abilities, completely open to constant improvement, and completely justified in saying that yes, I feel that I have some degree of talent. I'm sure we all tend to assume things about musicians once they tell us how long they've been playing for, the styles they play, or how often they practice. Given that my band's Soundcloud page is still in the works, I don't have any examples to put on this thread right this minute, but someday I will, and maybe then you won't be so skeptical. Buddy.

[carlthegroover]

I totally relate with what you're saying, OP. Especially in the last few jam sessions with my band, I've been realizing just how important it is to leave spaces in the songs. And I'm talking about 6-8 minute songs (mostly improvs... my bandguys have taken quite a liking to do so instead of 90% covers as we used to play before), with plenty of guitarist-drummer wankery.

I felt something similar. At first, I was kinda expecting them to "notice me" because I was playing fancier, which often meant playing too many notes and too fast. So, imagine, three individuals wanking away at one song... it sometimes was too much. But then I realized, "hey, it's not so bad to be the ONLY GUY not wanking off and actually holding the groove". I am becoming sort of the unofficial anchor of the songs, and I love the fact that the rest of my mates will have to listen to me to go back to the groove.

And sometimes, it just sounds better when I play less notes. I also agree, I can now clearly hear the band without me always playing.

EDIT: I haven't completely abandoned my wankery, but I'm refining my ability to, first, make it a lot shorter, and second, to find the spaces where a small chop or fill sounds good. I think I still have a long way to go, but hey, it's harder to start than it is to keep on going.

[hernameisrio]

I was listening to Duran Duran's first album and realizing how noodly JT really was. When they made that album, he was pretty much where I'm at as far as playing bass, maybe 6 months ahead. If you look at the band's later work (they're an acquired taste, I understand if you're not interested! haha!), it's interesting to see the noodly-ness taper off.

FWIW, I haven't told many people how long I've been playing for, not to deceive anyone, but just because I'd rather just play and let them think what they want. No one's ever asked, so it hasn't come up. A friend of mine who I took a few lessons from, who plays with Rose Royce and the Ohio Players, said he thought I'd been playing for a couple of years. So that's why I suggested that my progress might be faster than usual. It's not to say I'm, like, amazing...I know these things take time. It's just that I take pride in my playing and I've worked really, really, really hard to get this far already. And that means the freakin' world to me because man, I love this instrument!