When Do You Replace Someone?

[mjac28]

Stay with the first guy it sounds like the second guy may pull a shank out during a bar fight his name wouldn't happen to be Ringo would it?

[Itzayana]

I am going to sound like a real jerk here but...
My decades of business experience have taught me that it is best to replace an individual promptly after first wondering if you should.
It almost always turns out that you will eventually do just that and any delay is just time wasted.

I don't agree with mellowinman. I have a low tolerance for a##holes. I don't care how good they are. There are plenty of great players who are also nice people. Being in a band is kind of like a marriage. You basically live with these people.
Would you say, "I don't care how big a bitch she is. If she cooks, cleans, and generally keeps me satisfied that is good enough to be my wife"?

[Marko5657]

Apparently the BL feels that the regular drummer is good enough, and if they’re gigging steadily and making money, he might be right that he’s good-enough. Odds are he'll also improve as time goes on.

If he weren’t I’d replace him with someone other than dad; I think he’d take the fun out of the gig and end up being the band leader, which now that I think about it might be why the BL doesn’t want him in.

[ronlitz]

I won't play in a band with someone who is unpleasant - ruins the fun.

[dbd1963]

Well, here's what I'd do. I'd make this calculation - is this a band that I want to make into something special? If so, then go with Dad and kick his ass when he needs it.

If not, if it's just a bar band for fun, then go with the first guy. I don't see either way as superior to the other, just different goals.

[the yeti]

if there's a guy who's "the band leader" and that's really what he/she is, you don't. they do, when they see fit.

be glad you don't have to worry about it. and stop worrying about it.

[Tx Basser]

I am a 57 yr. old bassist who has played my way around the block a time or two and I have worked with just about every type drummer you can imagine.

I once worked with an "A" list drummer who was a working studio / touring player with Nashville connections. But he was the biggest A hole and drama queen I ever worked with. His know-it-all attitude and mouth kept the rest of the band on edge as he constantly mentioned every little mistake, etc. etc. He and I always got along great since he told me he liked my playing but he was constantly ragging on the guitar player, lead singer, keyboardist., the setlist, venues, etc. Nothing seemed to please him. Again, he is a GREAT drummer but a lousy person. He finally left when we told him to STFU and play.

FWIW, I would stay with the regular guy who is easy to get along with.
IMO, most "local" bands stay together because they are 70% compatabilty and 30% musical ability. I would rather work with a guy who is a great person and a mediocre drummer vs. the other way around. Gigging and making money is important but so is having fun playing music with a bunch of people you enjoy being around. Hired guns are just that and they will jump ship at the first better situation.

[mellowinman]

The thing is, I've met guys who are unpleasant enough, but as I said, show up on time, can be relied upon, and can play the songs, and bring life to them.

I have also played with "nice" guys who don't necessarily carry their weight.

So personality may matter, but it's not the only thing. My problem with drummers has mostly been that the guys just aren't good enough. I like to play songs that aren't just straight up 4/4 with no breaks, changes or complexity. If I wanted that, I'd use a drum machine, and put a picture of a drummer back there.

I like a drummer who can really PLAY. If he's a nice guy, great, but most people who can really PLAY drums tend to be a bit on the aggressive side. If someone's a top flight drummer, and nice and personable, he should be in the BIG TIME, not playing with my cover band.

I'm not saying I would put up with a drummer who's meaner, grouchier and more foul-mouthed than me.

Who would?

[tomnomnom91]

Originally Posted by mellowinman

I don't care if you're a jerk. I don't care if you get snappy. If you play well, show up on time, learn the songs, and make my life good while we're jamming, you are IN.

If you are the nicest guy in the world, but you're just not very good, you are OUT.

No exceptions.

This, forever. I play in two bands currently: my main, 'proper' band, complete democracy, in which I play bass, and another in which I'm the bandleader, to satisfy my own ego, and I play guitar. In the 'proper' band, the rhythm guitarist is a great songwriter, a pretty decent player, reliable enough, and committed. He's also a complete nightmare to work with, for reasons I can't be bothered to go into. In the other band, the bass player is a nice guy, means well, attempts to do everything I tell him to, but he's abysmal, to the point where at our last (and so far only) gig, I was seriously embarrassed to be on stage with him. Who would I rather work with? Go figure.

[BayStateBass]

Well, I have to stress that this is not a significant source of income for us. We all have decent day jobs and we have no expectation of ever making it any farther than local clubs, which we've already accomplished. At this point, it's for enjoyment and to put a few extra dollars in our pockets and have fun doing so. We're no threat to really good bands.

BL makes final decisions, but each of us has a vote for consideration.

The whole reason it came up is that BL asked me what my view was on the drummer situation.

[SpecialBlender]

Originally Posted by BayStateBass

Well, I have to stress that this is not a significant source of income for us. We all have decent day jobs and we have no expectation of ever making it any farther than local clubs, which we've already accomplished. At this point, it's for enjoyment and to put a few extra dollars in our pockets and have fun doing so. We're no threat to really good bands.

BL makes final decisions, but each of us has a vote for consideration.

The whole reason it came up is that BL asked me what my view was on the drummer situation.

In your situation your main drummer is the one I would go with. I long ago decided that music was going to be my "hobby" and I was going to have fun doing it. I've been fortunate to play with some excellent musicians in bands that developed a good following but have also had the fun sucked right out of it by a hot player with an impossible to get along with Jekyll & Hyde personality. Put up with if for 6 months before we fired him and never looked back. He got fired from his next 2 bands as well for the same reasons.

Swore to myself that would never happen again.

[jmattbassplaya]

Originally Posted by Tx Basser

I am a 57 yr. old bassist who has played my way around the block a time or two and I have worked with just about every type drummer you can imagine.

I once worked with an "A" list drummer who was a working studio / touring player with Nashville connections. But he was the biggest A hole and drama queen I ever worked with. His know-it-all attitude and mouth kept the rest of the band on edge as he constantly mentioned every little mistake, etc. etc. He and I always got along great since he told me he liked my playing but he was constantly ragging on the guitar player, lead singer, keyboardist., the setlist, venues, etc. Nothing seemed to please him. Again, he is a GREAT drummer but a lousy person. He finally left when we told him to STFU and play.

FWIW, I would stay with the regular guy who is easy to get along with.
IMO, most "local" bands stay together because they are 70% compatabilty and 30% musical ability. I would rather work with a guy who is a great person and a mediocre drummer vs. the other way around. Gigging and making money is important but so is having fun playing music with a bunch of people you enjoy being around. Hired guns are just that and they will jump ship at the first better situation.

I don't mind some constructive criticism from people, but there definitely is a line you don't cross. Like you, I much prefer compatibility over music ability... although it is great to have both if you can!

[MarkMgibson]

Originally Posted by BayStateBass

Well, I have to stress that this is not a significant source of income for us. We all have decent day jobs and we have no expectation of ever making it any farther than local clubs, which we've already accomplished. At this point, it's for enjoyment and to put a few extra dollars in our pockets and have fun doing so. We're no threat to really good bands.

BL makes final decisions, but each of us has a vote for consideration.

The whole reason it came up is that BL asked me what my view was on the drummer situation.

I think you just answered your own question. If you were trying to take the band further, then the best musician should always get the job (so long as he's reliable). If you're just doing this for fun, well that's a different matter - just play with people you get along with, and then it will always be fun.

Neither approach is wrong; it just depends on what you want to achieve, and it seems like you're happy where you're at, so why change things?

[lizardwizard28]

Who says you only get to choose between the two? I'd find someone who was talented AND easy to get along with.

[lizardwizard28]

I was in a band once with 2 of my best friends on keyboard/drum machine and a drummer. When rounding out with a guitarist we chose someone who wasnt a friend but who we knew quite well. Great guitar player, very responsible, all round great guy. His parts fit like a glove. For some reason the drummer could not get along with the guy and wanted to replace him with a good friend. The drummer cowrote the songs and sang, the guitar player just played what we gave him. Tough choice, but i had to value weight of the musicsians. I ended up regretting kicking the guitar player out. His replacement was an excellent player, but the old guy sounded better with the band. We also slowed down alot on writing and eventually broke up. Too many cooks in the kitchen cooking too many different things.

[Hobobob]

So, according to this thread, musicians are either nice folk who suck or arrogant jerkwads who can play. Nice to know.
Sounds like the OP's query is an easy one: as long as the guy stays on top of his stuff, keep him. Don't toss a good bandmate for a hotshot, even if he is your dad.
As for me: I play with people who have both. If you can't cut it on your instrument, you don't get the gig. If you antagonize your bandmates, you don't keep the gig. No way would I continue to subject myself to some jerkoff simply because he/she can tear it up. You know how many good musicians there are in L.A.?

[Marko5657]

How long has dad been available and gigging? I’m wondering why he hasn’t landed a steady position yet.

Could his abrasive personality be playing a part in that?

[MarkMgibson]

Originally Posted by Hobobob

So, according to this thread, musicians are either nice folk who suck or arrogant jerkwads who can play. Nice to know.
Sounds like the OP's query is an easy one: as long as the guy stays on top of his stuff, keep him. Don't toss a good bandmate for a hotshot, even if he is your dad.
As for me: I play with people who have both. If you can't cut it on your instrument, you don't get the gig. If you antagonize your bandmates, you don't keep the gig. No way would I continue to subject myself to some jerkoff simply because he/she can tear it up. You know how many good musicians there are in L.A.?

A lot of musicians I know fall somewhere in between. They're great musos, but can be hard to get along with at times. I wished I lived in L.A, because here you often do have to make such choices (talent vs cohesion). Where you live can obviously make a huge difference.

[Timmah]

Originally Posted by BayStateBass

As for me.......I really don't have a say. You see, backup drummer is my father

Plot twist!

[BayStateBass]

Originally Posted by Marko5657

How long has dad been available and gigging? I’m wondering why he hasn’t landed a steady position yet.

Could his abrasive personality be playing a part in that?

Well, just to clarify some things, Dad's not a jerk or a anal sphincter, he's actually a really nice guy. He does, however, have a high expectation of people and their level of performance. His view is that if it puts money in your pocket, it's a job and needs to be treated as such. So he has no patience for any sort of unprofessional behavior or lack of seriousness when rehearsing or playing a job. He is unforgiving of mistakes. And he'll come out an tell you that. For him, the fun is in the performance and getting feedback from the crowd. And if you're not carrying your weight, even on one song, he'll tell you about it. And he'll argue his point until he's blue in the face.

Our regular drummer wouldn't say crap if he had a mouthful.

As far as Dad's situation, he played professionally for over 35 years, did the union musician thing for a long time, and fronted (as much as you can when you're a drummer), his own band doing lead vocals and drums. That band lasted for about 10 years and played one club every thurs, fri, sat night every week for many years.

He got out of it when the last band started to go different ways, for him and the others it was a business arrangement only, they were not personal friends and I don't think they even particularly liked each other.

He took a few years off, and gave up drumming until I approached him about filling in our show because we were stuck and needed a drummer on short notice. He had about three weeks to get up to speed and he brought a top-notch performance, and people noticed. We could not find another drummer willing to come in with only 3 weeks and I asked my Dad to do it as a favor to me, because I wanted to play this show.

This started the fires burning again for him wanting to get out and play, and since then he's been chomping at the bit, hoping to get the regular job with our band. He told me that it was always one of his desires to play in a band with me, once I was good enough (which I am now, I know that). He's been looking at putting another band together again and asked me to play bass for him, but I just don't have the time for two bands where I have small kids and a 50-60 hour a week job (which I'm at now, trying to look busy.....)

And I'm not sure that I can deal with the high pressure he puts on his fellow musicians, honestly.