When Do You Replace Someone?

[tbirdsp]

Originally Posted by BayStateBass

he brought a top-notch performance, and people noticed.

What "people"? The rest of the band? Other musicians? I find it hard to believe your average Joe Schmoe bar patron can notice much of a difference in drummers.

[BayStateBass]

Originally Posted by tbirdsp

What "people"? The rest of the band? Other musicians? I find it hard to believe your average Joe Schmoe bar patron can notice much of a difference in drummers.

Well, when we did it we were actually sitting in with/for another band that we had worked with before (well, to a point....they were good enough to give us the opportunity to ride their coat tails around and play a little, get our name out there) and they were quick to notice that our backup had better chops than our regular guy. In addition, about 25% of the crowd were fellow musicians who had come out to support us in our first show as a group and they noticed. And probably the biggest thing was when the "host" band went back to the stage later, their drummer changed up his playing a little bit and mentioned that he felt "the challenge"....(actually, it was kinda funny....he laughed, too).

The band noticed, too, especially after our second performance at the same club with our regular drummer where we did the same songs (mostly) and all felt there was just "something off" when compared to our first show with the backup drummer.

[the yeti]

the guy who's pointing out the mistakes has been described as an a-hole, right? why is that? is it because it's not good manners to point out mistakes? (that's the impression i got)

do you guys really agree with that? maybe it's more "wrong" to be polite and let your bandmate (and more importantly your band) continue to ingrain mistakes for public consumption.

on the other hand maybe i'm wrong.

[ChrisB2]

Originally Posted by the yeti

the guy who's pointing out the mistakes has been described as an a-hole, right? why is that? is it because it's not good manners to point out mistakes? (that's the impression i got)

Hmm, I never thought of that, you might be onto something. I just figured Dad was a little abrasive and rude in his style... and/or also that OP just can't take criticism from his Dad (not unusual).

I still cant get past "BL ... won't change drummers" and "BL makes final decisions"... what else matters??

Originally Posted by BayStateBass

BL ... won't change drummers

Originally Posted by BayStateBass

BL makes final decisions

[FrenchBassQC]

When it starts to smell...

[the yeti]

Originally Posted by ChrisB2

I still cant get past "BL ... won't change drummers" and "BL makes final decisions"... what else matters??

nothing really, but there just seemed to be a sort of piling on over the "rude" guy... occurred to me to look at his side, or try to.

[MarkMgibson]

Originally Posted by tbirdsp

What "people"? The rest of the band? Other musicians? I find it hard to believe your average Joe Schmoe bar patron can notice much of a difference in drummers.

I don't agree; I give the average punter a little more credit than that. People who make an effort to go and see live bands do tend to recognise good musicians. Not all of them, but more than you might think.

Maybe they can't explain exactly why a band sounds particularly good, but it doesn't mean they don't know the difference between good and average.

[BayStateBass]

Originally Posted by ChrisB2

Hmm, I never thought of that, you might be onto something. I just figured Dad was a little abrasive and rude in his style... and/or also that OP just can't take criticism from his Dad (not unusual).

I still cant get past "BL ... won't change drummers" and "BL makes final decisions"... what else matters??

Gotcha. I'm done here.....

And yes, honestly, I would take the criticism more to heart being that he is my father where I'd be more okay with it from someone else. Lived in his shadow for years in many ways, but not now.

Thanks for all the input, folks, I really mean it and appreciate it.

[tbirdsp]

Originally Posted by MarkMgibson

I don't agree; I give the average punter a little more credit than that. People who make an effort to go and see live bands do tend to recognise good musicians. Not all of them, but more than you might think.

Maybe they can't explain exactly why a band sounds particularly good, but it doesn't mean they don't know the difference between good and average.

I hope you are right

Also - I should have clarified and added what you said - I do agree many could tell a difference, but few would be able to nail it down to the drummer.
Usually if the vocals are good most people won't notice anything else much.

My point was - for a part time cover band that seems to be getting regular gigs, maybe it would be better to stick with the guy who is easier to live with.

My personal instsinct is to side with the perfectionist who can play though. I've suffered through a few crappy drummers. It takes a lot of the fun of playing bass away IMHO.

[MarkMgibson]

Originally Posted by tbirdsp

I hope you are right

Also - I should have clarified and added what you said - I do agree many could tell a difference, but few would be able to nail it down to the drummer.
Usually if the vocals are good most people won't notice anything else much.

My point was - for a part time cover band that seems to be getting regular gigs, maybe it would be better to stick with the guy who is easier to live with.

My personal instsinct is to side with the perfectionist who can play though. I've suffered through a few crappy drummers. It takes a lot of the fun of playing bass away IMHO.

Yeah, that's my view as well - go with the best musician even if he's pain in the ass. But I guess it depends on the circumstances. I have to be fussy about who I play with, as I don't have another job to fall back on. If it was a hobby, or even just a nice "side- earner" thing, I might think differently.

[mellowinman]

Originally Posted by tbirdsp

What "people"? The rest of the band? Other musicians? I find it hard to believe your average Joe Schmoe bar patron can notice much of a difference in drummers.

It is my experience that your audience definitely notices whether or not you have a good drummer.

Don't kid yourself.

[kjpollo]

Originally Posted by ronlitz

I won't play in a band with someone who is unpleasant - ruins the fun.

This is exactly where I stand. I'm NOT a touring pro, I'm a weekend warrior who's in it for fun, good times, a few drinks and a coupla bucks.

I just got out of a situation where my singer blew a gasket because I couldnt make a rehearsal with ZERO gigs on the calendar. I dealt with a jerk like that once before and I promised myself never again.

OP, I think you are making the right call in sticking with the original guy and keeping dad around as the backup.
I also wonder, do you think he'd be even harder on you if you screwed something up, just because he is your dad? From how you described your dad's personality, I know that would be something I'd be worried about!

[two fingers]

Originally Posted by dbd1963

Well, here's what I'd do. I'd make this calculation - is this a band that I want to make into something special? If so, then go with Dad and kick his ass when he needs it.

If not, if it's just a bar band for fun, then go with the first guy. I don't see either way as superior to the other, just different goals.

I didn't realize this is how I felt until I read it and it made sense. Ha!

[tbirdsp]

Originally Posted by mellowinman

It is my experience that your audience definitely notices whether or not you have a good drummer.

Don't kid yourself.

As I said above - I hope you are right.

The worst drummer I ever played with had a huge kit - and liked to hit every part of it. And this was for an oldies/country band. On top of that he was a drunk ( I never saw him WITHOUT a six pack in his car). Couldn't keep a steady beat to save his life. Pretty much played 1/8 notes on the kick at all times.

I'd say at least 3/4 of the audience thought he was great....

[BayStateBass]

Originally Posted by tbirdsp

As I said above - I hope you are right.

The worst drummer I ever played with had a huge kit - and liked to hit every part of it. And this was for an oldies/country band. On top of that he was a drunk ( I never saw him WITHOUT a six pack in his car). Couldn't keep a steady beat to save his life. Pretty much played 1/8 notes on the kick at all times.

I'd say at least 3/4 of the audience thought he was great....

Actually, I'm not done I guess.

The above COULD be true of our regular guy if he would just be more aggressive. His two faults are; timing/tempo varies slightly when he plays (sometimes worse than others, he tends to be the guy who speeds up as he plays....you know the guy), but the biggest problem is he's really timid when he shouldn't be. On our classic country stuff he's okay, understated, but when we do the modern country he needs more drive and more noise. I swear he's in love with his brushes and hates the sticks.

On the positive side, he's 95% reliable, never late, no booze or drugs ever, easy going personality, patient, has a good kit, and really does put effort in every song, every time. He'll play the same song 6 times in a row if we want to and never complain about anything. Very much a team-oriented band member.

Any suggestions on how to approach this? I don't want to beat up on the guy but somehow I need to gently express to him that he has to get more energetic and come out of his shell more.

[the yeti]

Originally Posted by BayStateBass

Any suggestions on how to approach this? I don't want to beat up on the guy but somehow I need to gently express to him that he has to get more energetic and come out of his shell more.

do you guys talk to each other about individual performances during rehearsal? if not, start by saying "hey, we could probably benefit from analyzing these songs and offering critique so that they're better when we perform them." or something. make sure people understand that it's not about beating someone up, it's about making the unit better. if you're not able to do that w/o people getting their feelings hurt you are most likely doomed to not make improvement.

also, don't get all upset when someone questions what you're doing... nobody likes a hypocrite.

[BayStateBass]

Originally Posted by the yeti

do you guys talk to each other about individual performances during rehearsal? if not, start by saying "hey, we could probably benefit from analyzing these songs and offering critique so that they're better when we perform them." or something. make sure people understand that it's not about beating someone up, it's about making the unit better. if you're not able to do that w/o people getting their feelings hurt you are most likely doomed to not make improvement.

also, don't get all upset when someone questions what you're doing... nobody likes a hypocrite.

All points well taken, Yeti.

Well, it's funny. We're all mature adults but as a unit we are now only becoming mature enough to each express our opinions without getting all worked up. Up until our recent member "shakeup", nobody wanted to say anything to anyone, it was mostly like a bunch of guys expecting to get "participation trophies". But now we are seeing that we have potential as a group and I think adding the two new members we did, who are both experienced performers, allowed us to grow as some of the older members left or were fired. But it's a learning process, especially for me, where my band experiences are really limited even though I'm no kid anymore.

As far as taking criticism, it's always hard to see yourself and even harder to admit your faults, but I like to think I'm always asking for feedback on my playing and singing. When our old singer left, his comment to me was "you came in here knowing nothing about this type of music, but you took direction and you grew with it." So I'd like to think that I'm not only okay with being critiqued, but I look for it. But maybe I don't appear that way to everyone else, I don't know.

You know, I should be okay with talking to him. When our singer left I was asked to step up and the drummer told me that my singing "needed a lot of work". But last night, when I sang my songs, he also said, "You've been practicing, haven't you?"

[the yeti]

^exactly. it's just part of the work. maybe just ask him to drive the song more starting "here" or something. if he's ok w/ giving critisism he must be ok w/taking it.

[mellowinman]

OK, maybe (only MAYBE) my last point on this thread:

Life is too short to play with a bad drummer.

[MarkMgibson]

I guess it depends how bad this guy is, but I tend to agree. Drummers are the ones who hold the band together, and if they're not good, they'll will make everyone sound like crap. Though it does sound like this guy might get there with a bit more practise, but you should certainly hide those brushes! Actually, burn the damn things.