When does a sub become a permanent replacement?

[benrhodes]

A good friend of mine and I both play bass. We've been playing roughly the same amount of time, and have very comparable skills, knowledge of theory, etc. One of his friends fronts a successful cover band (country/southern rock). His friend's band was having big problems with their bassist (ie, he was an a**hole, and absolutely insisted on doing Judas Priest songs in a country band) so they let him go. My friend filled the spot, and life went along just fine. However, he soon had to leave town for 5 weeks to attend a program at Berklee. He asked me to sub and I agreed. I came over for him to show me the songs, and it was obvious that a good 1/4 of them he had no idea how to play. I'm sure he was more than capable of playing them, he just hadn't bothered to learn how to. He leaves for Berklee, and I fill in for him over the next 5 weeks, playing somewhere in the neighborhood of 8 gigs. After my last gig before he came back, they had a debate about whether or not to give me the gig permanently, as I seemed a better fit with the band. They decided to let him keep the job, as it really was his to start with.

When he got back, he played a single gig with them. The next week, he was sick, so I had to fill in for him. The next week, he was sick again, this time with a different ailment, so I filled in again. The next gig was a few days later, and nobody could get in touch with him, so they called me the morning of and asked me if I could play. I played again with the band. After the show, they told me that they thought I was handling the band business much more professionally. Now it's three days later, I'm talking to the drummer/manager, and they have a show this weekend. They still couldn't get in contact with their bass player, so I texted him and told him he has a gig. He responds with "Awesome. I'm sick of missing gigs." I called the drummer, and he said that he was glad that he was finally going to make it.

Do I have the right to be a little bit peeved? I've played 10 or 11 shows with these guys, while their actual bass player has only played 5 or 6. I know all of the songs while he doesn't. The guitarist couldn't make 2 shows for school-related reasons, but he has a very competent, reliable sub who has played with me and the other guy, and according to the band, privately told them that he preferred me. On top off all this, he didn't even so much as text the band to tell them that he couldn't make the show, leaving me to scramble to fill in at the last second. Really what I'm asking is, do you think that I should have the job in place of the actual bassist?

[jaywa]

Unfortunately (for you), this is totally the band's call. No matter how many gigs you play with them, until they cut ties with the other guy and officially tell you the gig is yours full-time, you are still a sub. Apparently a very often used sub, but the sub nonetheless.

If you like playing with these guys, keep taking as many gigs as they will give you and keep doing as good a job as you have been. Treat it like your full-time gig (unless of course you are already in another full-time situation, in which case that should continue to get priority). It sounds like factions are already forming within the band between you and the other guy, and if the majority winds up on your side the situation could change in your favor. It appears you have been an ultimate pro to this point, so keep it up. If it's meant to be, the gig will eventually be yours permanently.

[ubado]

Originally Posted by benrhodes

Do I have the right to be a little bit peeved? I've played 10 or 11 shows with these guys, while their actual bass player has only played 5 or 6.

Yea, I'd be a bit peeved ... to say the least. IMO ... they should give you the gig, especially since you keep pulling their chestnuts out of the fire.

IMO ... if they aren't going to give you the slot, that you've worked pretty hard at ... stop filling in for them. As long as you keep filling the gaps in their line-up, the easier it is for them to keep the status quo. Frankly, the next time they ask you to sub ... just say no thanks. IF you feel up to it ... tell them why you are declining any more gigs, but don't keep doing this to yourself (unless these are good paying gigs ... then go ahead keep it up ). As long as their bassist (your friend) keeps missing gigs, they'll have no choice but to bring you aboard at some point or another.

[bamabass]

You can be as peeved as you want, but it is a band decision. Have you made it clear to them that YOU want the gig? Is it worth losing your friendship over? Unless they say you are "in" the band...you are a hired gun. Enjoy the ride...collect the money, and rock out. Sounds like a matter of time before it is official. By handling it properly (which sounds like you have gone above and beyond) you will reap the dividends. By handling it improperly, you could A.) lose a good gig and B.) lose a friend.

[jaywa]

Originally Posted by ubado

IF you feel up to it ... tell them why you are declining any more gigs, but don't keep doing this to yourself (unless these are good paying gigs ... then go ahead keep it up ).

Yes, important consideration. Is this sub gig paying a decent check? If it's not, an assessment may be in order or if you're really cheeky you can ask for a raise. Especially if you suspect you are getting considerably less per gig than the regular guy. OTOH if these are your only paying gigs and they are paying well, you'd be a fool to risk them by playing hardball for the permanent spot. Besides, you never know when other musicians might be in the audience; the more you're out there playing, the better chance you have of building your network which may eventually lead to good full-time gig with another band even if the current one never goes any further.

[benrhodes]

Originally Posted by ubado

unless these are good paying gigs ... then go ahead keep it up ;

Well, that's part of it. They pay well, so I'm doing it partially because I could use the money, but honestly, more because I love playing. They're great guys and I hate the idea of not being able to play with them anymore.

Another point, the band averages $500 per night, split evenly 5 ways (I made full cut when I played with them.) Each member puts $20 in the band account after each show, so they each take home about $80. I had talked to the drummer/manager at the beginning and we decided that on the off chance that I did join the band (this was before I had actually started playing with them) that I would contribute my $20 after each show, that way I wouldn't owe anything to the band if I did join. Well, all figured, I'm now short somewhere close to $200, and I don't really know how to ask for it back.

[jaywa]

Originally Posted by benrhodes

Each member puts $20 in the band account after each show, so they each take home about $80. I had talked to the drummer/manager at the beginning and we decided that on the off chance that I did join the band (this was before I had actually started playing with them) that I would contribute my $20 after each show, that way I wouldn't owe anything to the band if I did join. Well, all figured, I'm now short somewhere close to $200, and I don't really know how to ask for it back.

OK, now here it gets bogus. No way in h*ll if I am on a sub gig am I contributing Dime One to any "band fund". You are entitled to a full refund of that $200 and if you're not willing to demand that, at least renegotiate the terms so that they are no longer skimming your take-home for their gain. You do understand that even if you had not been contributing $20 a show, you still would have not owed them anything until after you had been named a member of the band? To expect you to "pre-pay" on a "potential" future membership is just lame.

The more I hear about this band, the more I think you would be better off without them. I see a lot of manipulation and exploitation going on here, and not to your benefit.

[ubado]

Originally Posted by benrhodes

Well, that's part of it. They pay well, so I'm doing it partially because I could use the money, but honestly, more because I love playing. They're great guys and I hate the idea of not being able to play with them anymore.

There you have it ... stick it out, and swallow your pride. As it was put in a prior post ... IF it's meant to be, the gig will eventually be yours.

As far as the $$ owed to you. Ask for it back IF and only IF you never plan to play with them again ... as it might be the flame that burns the bridge.

Good Luck!

[bamabass]

Originally Posted by ubado

There you have it ... stick it out, and swallow your pride. As it was put in a prior post ... IF it's meant to be, the gig will eventually be yours.

As far as the $$ owed to you. Ask for it back IF and only IF you never plan to play with them again ... as it might be the flame that burns the bridge.

Good Luck!

While I understand the sentiment, there is no way I would let them NOT pay me back. It is obvious that for NOW they have made their choice. There is no way I would have agreed to pay into a band fund as a sub, so maybe because you agreed, you can;t get it back now, but there is NO WAY I would keep playing a sub and contributing. If they say you have to, I would walk.

[jaywa]

Originally Posted by ubado

As far as the $$ owed to you. Ask for it back IF and only IF you never plan to play with them again ... as it might be the flame that burns the bridge.

Good Luck!

Actually I would wait till after they named you a full member and then tell them that you do not intend to make any further band fund contributions until you are back to square. I.e. log every gig you played with them as a sub, and if you wound up subbing 15 gigs then you are $300 to the good and the next 15 gigs you play with them as a full member you get your full cut without the band fund deduction. On gig 16 you're back to contributing to the band fund and it's all good. If they have a problem with that they can eff-off.

[Nagrom]

Hang in there. You did the honorable thing, called the primary guy and lined him up for the gig. Betcha a buck it's his last show with the band. They'll give you the spot next week after the band meeting.

[cassanova]

You're a fill in and you're only a permanent replacement if they offer you the position or if you ask for it and they agree. Such is the life of sub's.

Originally Posted by benrhodes

Each member puts $20 in the band account after each show, so they each take home about $80. I had talked to the drummer/manager at the beginning and we decided that on the off chance that I did join the band (this was before I had actually started playing with them) that I would contribute my $20 after each show, that way I wouldn't owe anything to the band if I did join. Well, all figured, I'm now short somewhere close to $200, and I don't really know how to ask for it back.

You might have to eat the loss on that and it's something you IMO/IME as a sub should never have agreed to do. The way I see it, even if you did join the band you wouldn't owe them a cent because you were only a sub prior to joining.

If you really want it back, then the best way to ask for it back is by being direct. I would say something along the lines of "I've done X amount of gigs for you guys now and have been contributing the $20 each gig to a band fund. I'm not an official member of the band so, I would either like to be compensated the $200 I've contributed or become your permanent bass player." But as said, do so at your own risk because as previously stated that could very well be the fire that burns the bridge. Better to eat the loss and consider it a lesson learned as something not to do in the future.

[RustyAxe]

You're a fill-in until the band tells you otherwise. I have to wonder how much of a "good friend" you are if you're willing to undercut your buddy to get a spot in his band. Fill-ins are great gigs. Good money, no practice (unless they're paid), no headaches ... and great fun to play. You might have the better gig right now.

As to the band fund, well that's water under the bridge at this point ... but ... you should make it clear that in the future you want your full $100 per gig (regardless of what the band gets paid) ... as a non-member you are not required to contribute to a band fund and are able to name a reasonable price. The band can take it or leave it.

[DeluxeRed]

Welcome to the path of least resistance. As long as you are keeping that path nice and greasy for them, there's no reason for them to get the regular guy to shape up, nor any reason for them to change their relationship with you. In fact, they have you doing the dirty work of rounding up their band members.

If I had a band with a flakey bass player, and someone who would cover for his shortcomings, I'd keep ridin' y'all as long as you let me. Hell, you're even PAYING to have them do it to ya.

You can continue to be ridden, or you can tell them it's time to **** or get off the pot. At least, if you're just a sub with no commitment, you need to re-negotiate your deal. You're worth MORE as a sub than they'd be paying their regular guy, since you have no control on musical or business direction yet still have to be flexible to their needs.

I'm all for good-time playing. But not at the expense of being taken advantage of and walked-on like that. Full membership and credit, or premium pay with no responsibility for getting other people's act together.

[jaywa]

Originally Posted by DeluxeRed

Hell, you're even PAYING to have them do it to ya.

Yeah, this right here is the really dysfunctional part of the situation. Taking a "band fund" cut from a guy that's not even a member of the band.

[sirpug]

Originally Posted by bamabass

Is it worth losing your friendship over?

I'm surprised this has only been mentioned once. There is the potential for a messy situation here.

From the first post I get the feeling that the permanent bassist is a good friend. If you steel (and that's how he'll see it) the gig from him, you're likely to loose that friendship. In fact, if they fire him and hire you, you'll likely loose the friendship also because he'll see it the same way no matter how you try to explain it to him.

You need to decide if it's worth the friendship. The only way I see to keep that is to remain a sub, even if they fire him and want to hire you as his replacement.

Very sticky man. Maybe talk to him and let him know that he's pissing these guys off and he needs to shape up or he's going to loose the gig.

I would also stop paying into the band fund but I'd probably just chalk up the money paid in so far as a learning experience, but that's just me. And I would definitely stop relaying messages and reminding him of his shows. If they can't get a hold of him, they can call you for a sub but getting a hold of him is their responsibility. If your not careful there, you might end up as the middle man and get stuck there

[jaywa]

Originally Posted by sirpug

Very sticky man. Maybe talk to him and let him know that he's pissing these guys off and he needs to shape up or he's going to loose the gig.

Yeah, except apparently the "regular" guy isn't pissing the band off. Or at least, enough that they are inclined to do anything about it. Based on his behavior, the regular guy apparently doesn't feel he's in danger of losing the gig, and the band doesn't seem to be ready to let him go or they would have done it already, especially with a more than capable replacement waiting in the wings who knows all the material.

[crijan]

I'd say raise your price for sub gigs to say $150 on a normal $100 gig. You don't have to work for an even cut, especially if they aren't giving you but a day's notice of the gigs.

[ThunderLizard]

Ben-
Accept this as a sub gig until THEY make it into something else. But no more paying into the band fund......you're a sub, and they've got 200 of your iron men.
Keep playing, networking and saying 'yes' to opportunities. Something good will come your way.

[ZoomBoy]

Ben,
Have you talked at all with your friend about this situation? Does he care? He might not. Problem 1/2 solved. Oh and no more paying into the band fund until you are part of the band IMHO.
Jeff