Why must this happen...

[Shaun_Bass0]

Got this e-mail from a "promoter's" mailing list i'm on:-

"Hi Music Industry,

Thanks for your emails applying to perform at various London venues.
We have provided some available gig dates below. If you can confirm that more than 35 people/fans will attend your performance (regardless of what part of the world you are from) then we are closer to putting you on stage"

What the $%^&, seriously!!!. I get it that venues want people through the door to make money but as a promoter this is just lazy. How are start-up bands supposed to get a foot in the door if they have to deal with this $%^&. To deserve to play live, bands need to be at a certain level BUT that takes work, and you don't have x amount of fans straight away, you need to build that up through playing live, exactly what idiots like this guy is stopping!!. Its strangles new bands, to the point where I personally have given up on the originals scene and am now backing other artists as a a sideman cuz I dont stand a chance against what the live music industry has become.

No-one ever said to The Who "we'll only book you if you can x amount of people"......is live music is closer to death than ever???

[phatbass]

I don't agree with it, but I think it's the principle of "If you don't like it, there are 5,423,987,561 bands in the line behind you who will".

[Kirk Bryant]

just confirm that yes of course we have 35 fans that will show up and book the gig, produce your e-m list which I'm sure has a hundred or more addresses. ( If you don't just take one of your buddy's band lists and send that.) Hell I get mailings from friends bands all the time that don't block thier e-m Addresses ( PS you really Should block all the cc's) and just "borrow" them. then tip your mate with a pint or two !!!!!


Book em' Danno !!!


peace Capt Kirk

[genstormbringer]

sounds like your band needs to get some of your original material and distribute it let the people decide if they like you make the music and they will come

[Joe Nerve]

Buy a club and then see how you feel about it.

If a band wants good gigs then they have to work really really hard to develop a fanbase so that they can get the good gigs.

Sorry if it sounds harsh, but the quicker you get over it and accept that that's the way it is, the better off you'll be. Now go book the gig and get 35 people over to the club. If getting 35 people down is impossible for you, then your band still has lots of work to do.

[Rob Lewis]

Welcome to London's fabulous music scene...

[Shaun_Bass0]

This isn't about my band situation, not that there is one at the moment, but the fact that wherever you turn nowadays its about numbers and whether a band is good or not doesn't seem to matter as long as you can bring people through the door. I've both been to and played gigs where you look at a band and think "why the hell am I wasting my time watching/playing with a band that can't even play together...but they've got lots of friends tho!"

But thanks for letting me know that i've "got a lot of work to do" anyway...I clearly don't know what i'm doing now do I?

[D.E.C.]

I totally agree with you. The venues around here usually pay nothing (exposure!!), AND they want you to bring the crowd, too. Whenever we try and get in a venue, the first thing we're asked is "How many people can you bring?" In the good old days, people went to their venue of choice because it was the place to go. You enjoyed the bands that came through because you knew they were gonna be good. We are in our 40s now and our friends have families and responsibilities (plus I feel bad asking them to come out all the time), so the younger bands with lotsa connections seem to get the gigs (and believe me, some of these guys are brutal). It scares away music fans who appreciate live music (except for their friends). These places won't develop their own clientele because they'll get a rep for having shi**y entertainment. We were looking to play three hours away (this bar advertises that it has a showcase on Mondays for Indie bands). The promoter throws the question at me (wants us to bring at least 50 people). These gigs also have three or four bands on a bill, so it doesn't all fall on one band's shoulders. I explained that we want to broaden our fanbase, and assumed that since it was a showcase for indie bands, that the bar would have it's own clientele. He got pissy in a hurry. We are a solid, tight, competent band with a mature attitude. But since we don't hire a bus to follow us around, we don't get many gigs. Given the chance to play, I think we would certainly gain some new fans. I think these guys are greedy. They don't wanna fork out money for promotion, so they have the bands do their work for them. They get their seats filled without any effort, then reward you with a pitcher of beer (if you chase them for it) at the end of the night. Oh yeah, and they get upset if the crowd isn't big enough for them. This is just a hobby for me. I'd hate to try and make a go of it in this "new age" of club management. I liked it better when the good bands were rewarded with more gigs, and the crappy ones either picked up their socks or disbanded. There's no incentive to improve as a musician, as long as you have buddies. It was better when you had to pay your dues rather than have a whack of available friends. Sorry for the rant...I'm sure not every scene is as dismal as our's. Hopefully, some are actually flourishing...

[Kenny Allyn]

Originally Posted by Shaun_Bass0

"why the hell am I wasting my time watching/playing with a band that can't even play together...

But thanks for letting me know that i've "got a lot of work to do" anyway...I clearly don't know what i'm doing now do I?

The first statement pretty much nails what both the venue owners and patrons are thinking when they take a chance on a band from both a booking and listening aspect ... If a band doesn't have appeal people vote with their feet and leave and a venue owner loses money ... I know what a concept

Second what do you want to get mad at Joe for ... what did he say that isn't true? Do you know your target demographic, I'll be willing to bet most bands don't. Can you hold a nonpartisan crowd, if the average person wanders into a venue does your band have the chops, stage appeal, etc: that make that person want to stay and hear more?

Pro bands/musicians know these things ... from wedding bands, to party bands, from rockabilly to deathmetal the pros not only know all the aspects of their target market but actually how to get it and keep it.

If what you have to offer is only 35 minutes of your dream of making it as a rock star then your doomed to a cycle of bring your 35 ticket holders ... that's not being harsh that's the facts, ask any promoter, venue manager, booking agent, or club owner.

...

[jmac]

This is how it is for original bands in Philadelphia. It doesn't matter how good or bad the band is as long as you can bring at least 25 friends/family members to a show. Zero chance of developing a following.

Like Phatbass mentioned, there are too many bands willing to bow to the situation.

[Jim Campbell]

Originally Posted by Joe Nerve

Buy a club and then see how you feel about it.

If a band wants good gigs then they have to work really really hard to develop a fanbase so that they can get the good gigs.

Sorry if it sounds harsh, but the quicker you get over it and accept that that's the way it is, the better off you'll be. Now go book the gig and get 35 people over to the club. If getting 35 people down is impossible for you, then your band still has lots of work to do.

now hold on thar.....with all due respect,what if my friends don't wish to go to that club....if your paycheck is incumbent on cajoling money out of your pals,who may have other plans,something is way off....a night out to see a band is an expensive proposition for a lot of folks these days,and with cab rides etc can total a good chunk of a weeks wage......and if you do it once,what stops the clubs from insisting on it always....club owners want to make the profits but pass the risk off to the bands......how many times can you go back to the well....

i understand the way it is and i've said that if someone wants to play for nothing,well it's a free country,but to have to go out and rustle up an audience for some club is just wrong

[AlembicPlayer]

start up business
club or band ...same thing

the club wants the band to have a following
the band wants the club to have a following

wouldn't it be nice if the club had, great service, great food and selection of beers, affordable etc...that a local following would be a reality!

wouldn't it be nice if the band had such good music and chemistry that loyal listeners came to every show no matter where it was?

WE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR OWN SUCCESS!

if you are waiting to be discovered in a bar that is hoping you will bring in people who have never been to that club....well, the wheel goes round and round.

[Jason P Bass]

Maybe I'm just afflicted with good sense, but when a venue asks you to bring 35 people, and 10 people show up (when another band might have brought 25, or 35, or more) is HARD EVIDENCE that they made a mistake by booking you, and is HARD EVIDENCE that your band (as a business, not necessarily as musicians) is not ready to play there.

The place is trying to avoid making a mistake. That's all. They're not persecuting you. They aren't violating your civil rights. They're trying to filter out the bands who are not ready to play their stage.

It is 2009, almost 2010. If you're trying to build a following based STRICTLY on your stage performance, you're at least 25 years behind the times (maybe more). There's nothing wrong with that, but you're going to have a hard time playing any place that filters out bands who don't have a draw.

I've been in bands on both sides of this argument. In my experience, the only people who are unhappy about this situation are the ones who do not promote their band or their gigs AND want better gigs.

If you promote your band and gigs, or if you're a cover band that's happy to play small bars, then the world is your oyster.

Tips: Check out gigposters.com for incredible art ideas. Get band logo stickers printed (I recently got 1000 3"x3", 4 color stickers for $75 and they look AWESOME). Get an email list going by hook or by crook ("borrowing" other people's lists is dishonest, dirty, and sneaky, and I would do it in a heartbeat ). Facebook/myspace/website goes without saying in this day and age. Sell or give away MP3s via email instead of CDs and save on the duplication costs. Call college radio stations and get yourself live on the air (usually not that difficult, college radio is typically eager to have anything fresh) and promote your shows while you're there. Charity/benefit shows can be excellent IF the charity has organization and can draw people.

Best of luck. Anybody with ideas I have skipped, please chime in. I'm always looking for new ways to market my band.

[darkfinger]

^^^^ +10000000000 to what Jason P Bass said.

[StephenR]

Originally Posted by Jim Campbell

i understand the way it is and i've said that if someone wants to play for nothing,well it's a free country,but to have to go out and rustle up an audience for some club is just wrong

You are not rustling up an audience solely for the club... you are rustling up a following for your band... If you don't understand why this is important you are doomed to fail.

[Geddyfleaharris]

Originally Posted by AlembicPlayer

start up business
club or band ...same thing

the club wants the band to have a following
the band wants the club to have a following

wouldn't it be nice if the club had, great service, great food and selection of beers, affordable etc...that a local following would be a reality!

wouldn't it be nice if the band had such good music and chemistry that loyal listeners came to every show no matter where it was?

WE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR OWN SUCCESS!

if you are waiting to be discovered in a bar that is hoping you will bring in people who have never been to that club....well, the wheel goes round and round.

Who are you and why do you always have such insightful comments? lol And no that is not sarcasm. I am not sure I have read any of your posts over the last few weeks without thinking that I am on the same, exact page.

Anyways +1 to the quote.

If the bar books cover bands I expect that they should have some sort of a regular clientel supplemented by the band having a bit of a following.

If the bar books original bands then they usually are looking for the band to be the draw. If a bar owner is going to take a chance and book your original band how does he even know if you are any good? What if you are crap and clear out the few people that have wandered in? Around here the original bars don't pay. If you want to be paid you better sell tickets to the show.

[MichaelScott]

At least you aren't in Los Angeles. There the ad would read:

"Hi Music Industry,

Thanks for your emails applying to perform at various Los Angeles venues.
We have provided some available gig dates below. The entry fee is $500 for 100 tickets. You can resell the tickets to your fan base for $5 a pop or more if you wish to make a profit. If you don't bring at least 50 people you'll never play in our venue again since we have 3,456,679 other bands willing to pay to play and bring people."

[AlembicPlayer]

Originally Posted by Geddyfleaharris

Who are you and why do you always have such insightful comments? lol And no that is not sarcasm. I am not sure I have read any of your posts over the last few weeks without thinking that I am on the same, exact page.

Anyways +1 to the quote.

LOL
I've noticed the same thing about your posts!
I'm just old!
haha


really, it's becoming more and more evident to me that music is a hobby for most AND business for a few...and there is a transition place...in the bars and clubs where we are struggling with it.
Hobbyists will play for free or what I like to call the chicken wing and beer gig. Struggling pros need to refuse these gigs and let the hobbyists have them, that's what the small clubs who book their own acts should get. I've struggled with this because on one hand, I want to play and be seen. I've gotten really sweet gigs while playing out with less than desirable players..but was seen by a pro and offered a sweet gig.

On the other hand it does me a dis-service to be slumming it all the time and being seen as someone who will work for peanuts and glory. (really there is no glory for most bass players!)


recently I've been working with a female solo artist who asked me to form a band around her. She works with sponsors to fund her project. I am getting paid for rehearsals and fat guarantees for shows. This is a new approach for me, I've never worked with a sponsored act before...but this is the kind of thinking outside the box that needs to happen these days..because we all know the biz has changed drastically in the past 5 -10 years...but bands are still using the same old antiquated formulas...then wonder why the pay scale hasn't changes since the 70's. Do the same thing over and over, get the same results and wonder what's wrong!

crazy?

[bassandbeyond]

I agree that it's reasonable for a club to want bands with a following, but the email quoted by the OP was from a "promoter", not a club owner. Frankly, if my band can generate a substantial turnout on its own, what do we need a promoter for? Sounds like an expendable middleman to me.

[Jason P Bass]

Originally Posted by bassandbeyond

I agree that it's reasonable for a club to want bands with a following, but the email quoted by the OP was from a "promoter", not a club owner. Frankly, if my band can generate a substantial turnout on its own, what do we need a promoter for? Sounds like an expendable middleman to me.

It's a good point, but is 35 people a "substantial turnout"? (For the bands I'm in, that's not bad, but we're far from making it big.)

Could be a useless middleman, or it could be someone looking for a band that can draw 35 people to turn into a band that can draw 100 people. I've never made it to that level so I couldn't say.