working with musicians you dont respect?

superking · #1 06-22-2011, 07:53 PM

Hi TB

i have some pick up work with a local band. Prolly only a few gigs a year. easy material too.

The thing is, they're bad in ways that bother me, So i dont know if I should do it or not.

mainly it's that the drummer cant/wont keep the beat steady. He will sometimes both speed up and slow down within the same verse... maybe I'm in an ivory tower, but i dont see how a band with a problem that fundamental keeps getting work.

As a bassist trying to get work here in the big city with the surprisingly insular music scene, I want to protect my reputation, since i feel it's all i have besides my ability and gear. But would my rep be better served by avoiding the beat-challenged band, or would 'soldiering through' these musical minefields be better?

What's your experience, TB?

cjmodulus · #2 06-22-2011, 07:58 PM

Honestly, it doesn't seem like a respect issue, more of an experience one. If you don't desperately need the gig I wouldn't take it.
But that's just because I really can't stand drummers who can't keep tempo. Bugs the **** out of me.
Edit- after re reading the post, I'm not sure about the reputation thing. If they really are all that bad, they might make you look good in comparison. But if the overall performance suffers because of wavering tempos I think it'll ruin the bands reputation rather than your individual one. I'd probably just try to find a better gig.

Russell L · #3 06-22-2011, 08:04 PM

If it ain't fun, then it has to pay well. If it ain't fun, and it don't pay well either, then...

There comes a time when you wanna play only gigs that are pleasing to you. Maybe a few that are just for work, whether perfectly pleasing or not. I've done both. What can be worse is when the bad part is about some kind of personal issue with a member(s). The "Drama" stuff, ya know. Oh, get me outa there...

vin*tone · #4 06-22-2011, 08:11 PM

Well paid gigs?

My reputation can be bought.

T-MOST · #5 06-22-2011, 08:25 PM

Suck it up and play the gig like a professional or don't take the gig.

wsmerwin@hotmai · #6 06-22-2011, 08:34 PM

Why not try talking to your band mates, work with them toward a happy solution for every one. Given the opportunity most musicians strive to better themselves. Once the problems are brought to light you might be surprised by a genuine effort to fix whatever is wrong. Whether that fix is, lessons for the offending musician or replacing him / her, is not your concern (the leader should be responsible); you've cleared the air and your mind and are ready to move on.

HeadyVan Halen · #7 06-22-2011, 08:38 PM

How much you are getting paid --subtract-- how much it will hurt your rep= what you should do..

Most people who suck this late in the game, know they suck so 'having the heart to heart' or 'making some DVD/CD's for him' will NOT work...

Pure business matters here.

I<34080 · #8 06-22-2011, 08:45 PM

i say if you don't like it, get out. You're not only just making yourself angry, but you'll hurt the band. You don't like it, so you definitely won't give it your best.

Youngspanion · #9 06-22-2011, 08:47 PM

I feel like I cannot lock in with my drummer and I do definitly think it is him. But tonight I pulled the metronome out and just played some scales along with it and I tell you. I had a hard time keeping time with the beat.

I'm not a working musician by any means and I definitely have no reputation to protect although sometimes, I think I do.

I agree with wsmerwin. Unless something you really want comes along, just stick with it.

Do you like the guys in general. Sometimes that just makes it almost impossible to jam with.

superking · #10 06-22-2011, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Youngspanion

I feel like I cannot lock in with my drummer and I do definitly think it is him. But tonight I pulled the metronome out and just played some scales along with it and I tell you. I had a hard time keeping time with the beat.

I'm not a working musician by any means and I definitely have no reputation to protect although sometimes, I think I do.

I agree with wsmerwin. Unless something you really want comes along, just stick with it.

Do you like the guys in general. Sometimes that just makes it almost impossible to jam with.

everyone in the band openly knows the drummer cant keep time. they just dont seem to care. go figure. and it's not like he has mushy time, its like randomly dropping from 135 down to 95 bpm! sober! in my 20+ years gigging and auditioning, I've never seen anything like it!

this was all thru craigslist hookup, so I dont know these guys at all. I have only the musician angle to go on.

Brocko777 · #11 06-22-2011, 09:29 PM

You are a sub with "their" group. You play the best you can,
as professional as you can, then get your $$ at the end of the night.
I would make it clear in any conversation (patrons/ other musicians) that you are a hired gun for the group.
The only other choice would be to tactfully mention it to the drummer to even see if he/she is aware of the tempo changes.
"wow, that tempo was a little all over the place. Did you take a 5 Hour Energy shot before that tune?

"

Brocko

Kael · #12 06-22-2011, 09:32 PM

Bah. Set a firm price. I'd recommend doing a flat rate as opposed to the equal cut thing where the pay floats depending on gig. Too easy to get screwed or lied to on those with hired gun work. Take the gig if they accept your price. Do NOT advertise the gig, that's their job (they hired a bassist not a publicist). As for the rep thing, be open about the fact that you are a hired gun for the gig but don't cram it down anyone's throat. That lets other musicians know that any cluster-ehfery they are hearing on stage is not due to you while simultaneously drawing attention to your availability. After all, if you can remain professional while playing with these guys, you will probably be able to handle whatever issues arise when playing with a more professional group.

electracoyote · #13 06-22-2011, 09:43 PM

I agree with others above. You either suck it up, do your best, collect your pay, and keep your mouth shut about the deficiences of the drummer or anyone else in the band, or you make a conscious decision that the discomfort of playing with sub-standard musicians is not worth it and find a better investment for your time and talent. You're a hired gun, a mercenary, you're not a bandmember, judge, or critic. Don't even think about rehabilitating these guys.

MysticMichael · #14 06-22-2011, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cjmodulus

Edit- after re reading the post, I'm not sure about the reputation thing. If they really are all that bad, they might make you look good in comparison. But if the overall performance suffers because of wavering tempos I think it'll ruin the bands reputation rather than your individual one.

Nonsense. IME, if the band as a whole sounds bad, then the stink will stick to everyone in the band - regardless of whether or not the OP actually deserves it. Typically it is only other musicians who can pick out a good individual performance from a collective train wreck. And only some of them. Rarely so among general audience members.

If the OP is looking to establish a good reputation, trying to do it with these clowns would be a bad bet...

Quote:

Originally Posted by superking

everyone in the band openly knows the drummer cant keep time. they just dont seem to care. go figure. and it's not like he has mushy time, its like randomly dropping from 135 down to 95 bpm! sober! in my 20+ years gigging and auditioning, I've never seen anything like it!

Any drummer whose tempo deviates that wildly doesn't just play poorly. He doesn't really "play" at all. And if the other guys don't seem to even care, then that should tell you everything you need to know.

Unless you're desperate for a payday - and I mean really hurting - get out of there: FAST! Even a sub or a hired gun needs to set some standards. If you want to position yourself for the premium opportunities down the road, don't play with these bozos. They will only drag you down...

MM

Nathan Shaw · #15 06-22-2011, 10:29 PM

There are a couple things to consider:

like any artist, your projects wear your name. Regardless of how often you play, or your personal motivation for playing in such groups.. having your name attached to something you're not proud of is never a fun thing, and can be professionally damaging.

A couple other things to consider: does it pay well? Well enough for you to be willing to look at it as work and not as doing what you love?

It's all about how you feel, and whether or not the benefits of your position outweigh the cons. I personally, in your position, would feel creatively drained.. and I wouldn't stay in that position for very long.

Best of luck!

edit: I agree with Kael. If you have a price on your work as a hired gun, have them set your pay in stone or take a hike, I say. I was in that "if we get paid, you get paid" trap doing session work for awhile. All the variables make it not worth a working musician's time, if you ask me.

the byronic man · #16 06-22-2011, 10:36 PM

for me, if i don't respect someone as a musician i can't talk myself into playing with them. if the money was INCREDIBLE i may rethink that, but generally it isn't worth the headaches in my experience.

Schizoid75 · #17 06-22-2011, 10:38 PM

There is a lot of good advice here and only you can say what the right answer is. You may even change your mind with 20/20 hindsight.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet--who do these guys know, who do they play for, and who will see you and meet you? I've played with some crappy musicians that were friends with good musicians. Will it put you in contact people that will open doors for you? Maybe you put up with the gig in order to network. Just throwing it out there.

superking · #18 06-22-2011, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schizoid75

There is a lot of good advice here and only you can say what the right answer is. You may even change your mind with 20/20 hindsight.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet--who do these guys know, who do they play for, and who will see you and meet you? I've played with some crappy musicians that were friends with good musicians. Will it put you in contact people that will open doors for you? Maybe you put up with the gig in order to network. Just throwing it out there.

i heartily agree. lots of good advice here. thats why i love me some TB

AFAICT at this early juncture I'd just be playing in some bay area "dive" bars. I wouldnt really expect to meet anyone of consequence. good point!

dunno about the networking potential, but I'm going with a 'more is better' approach since I'm the n00b in town

Depth_Charge · #19 06-22-2011, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by superking

AFAICT at this early juncture I'd just be playing in some bay area "dive" bars. I wouldnt really expect to meet anyone of consequence. good point!

I've played in local crappy bands at local crappy dive bars.
Some of the photo's and recordings of my time with these crappy bands are now readily available for anyone with an internet connection and the inclination to check those resources out. I even had some on my own myspace as I initially thought it was better than nothing. And word gets out among agents and venues, many of whom IME have long, photographic memories. . .
I've been through the ringer a few times with bad bands so nowadays if its not a fit and not likely to become one, I don't force it, and I don't hang too long.

MysticMichael · #20 06-22-2011, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Depth_Charge

I've played in local crappy bands at local crappy dive bars.
Some of the photo's and recordings of my time with these crappy bands are now readily available for anyone with an internet connection and the inclination to check those resources out. I even had some on my own myspace as I initially thought it was better than nothing. And word gets out among agents and venues, many of whom IME have long, photographic memories. . .
I've been through the ringer a few times with bad bands so nowadays if its not a fit and not likely to become one, I don't force it, and I don't hang too long.

Bingo. Exactly what I'm talking about...

MM