It works! Open letter..... part 2

[two fingers]

Originally Posted by Ubersheist

True, but I wish I had this knowledge when I was 17!

Even if you're not playing at bars, but at coffee shops or other all ages places, you can still figure out and ask the owners/organizers what makes them more money and/or makes their night easier. Having the mindset that unless you can sell yourself, and help others make money too, will really help your music career in the long run.

I can imagine this is very true. It doesn't have to be alcohol. Wherever you are playing, you have a powerful tool in a microphone. People already think you are "cool" because you are on stage. And the mic lets you influence all (or most) of them at once.

[two fingers]

Originally Posted by Luke19Boarder

that's what she said?

According to my wife.........

ah never mind.

[jungleheat]

Wow, way to miss the point, factor. I was simply pointing out there is a wider array of causes for "friction" than you and a couple other people had claimed. And you use it as an excuse to be nasty. I dunno, maybe you're right, maybe it IS you?

Anyway, I think it's great if you can work WITH the venue owner/staff, and maybe do a little impromptu promo for the bar, etc... as long as you can do it without being too corny and commercialized. A lot of people don't like being "sold at". Like if I'm watching a tv show and a character takes 2 minutes to say something like "oh, check out the fancy GPS on my new TOYOTA SIENNA" or something like that, it's really off-putting. I think a better idea is instead of just saying "oh, try the cougar punch at the bar, it's fantastic!", actually DRINK said drink, be seen to be enjoying it, and then make an offhand comment or 2 about what it is. It's more subtle but also probably more effective, unless people are already blasted, in which case it's probably not necessary to push them to buy more drinks anyway, since they'll do that on their own.

[Luke19Boarder]

Originally Posted by jungleheat

Wow, way to miss the point, factor. I was simply pointing out there is a wider array of causes for "friction" than you and a couple other people had claimed. And you use it as an excuse to be nasty. I dunno, maybe you're right, maybe it IS you?

Anyway, I think it's great if you can work WITH the venue owner/staff, and maybe do a little impromptu promo for the bar, etc... as long as you can do it without being too corny and commercialized. A lot of people don't like being "sold at". Like if I'm watching a tv show and a character takes 2 minutes to say something like "oh, check out the fancy GPS on my new TOYOTA SIENNA" or something like that, it's really off-putting. I think a better idea is instead of just saying "oh, try the cougar punch at the bar, it's fantastic!", actually DRINK said drink, be seen to be enjoying it, and then make an offhand comment or 2 about what it is. It's more subtle but also probably more effective, unless people are already blasted, in which case it's probably not necessary to push them to buy more drinks anyway, since they'll do that on their own.

Yeah, I think the actual approach you take to it is up to your personality.

One thing that one of my old bands would do occasionally was to take shots on stage, and a a few times we would kinda be like "hey we're taking shots after the next song - so you guys should all grab something from the bar and we'll toast!"

Something to that effect - more casual than a hard sell, but it definitely worked to some degree.

[ForSix]

We'll be here all week.

Try the veal.

[two fingers]

Originally Posted by jungleheat

Wow, way to miss the point, factor. I was simply pointing out there is a wider array of causes for "friction" than you and a couple other people had claimed. And you use it as an excuse to be nasty. I dunno, maybe you're right, maybe it IS you?

Anyway, I think it's great if you can work WITH the venue owner/staff, and maybe do a little impromptu promo for the bar, etc... as long as you can do it without being too corny and commercialized. A lot of people don't like being "sold at". Like if I'm watching a tv show and a character takes 2 minutes to say something like "oh, check out the fancy GPS on my new TOYOTA SIENNA" or something like that, it's really off-putting. I think a better idea is instead of just saying "oh, try the cougar punch at the bar, it's fantastic!", actually DRINK said drink, be seen to be enjoying it, and then make an offhand comment or 2 about what it is. It's more subtle but also probably more effective, unless people are already blasted, in which case it's probably not necessary to push them to buy more drinks anyway, since they'll do that on their own.

There seems to be a very "anti-commercial anti-corporate anti-profit" sentiment here at TB. If you wear the wrong freaking SHIRT on stage you are "selling out". I don't think that is the case with the main stream.

(To watch most media outlets, however, one could be lead to believe that ALL sales, profit, selling, commercials, money, and business is bad. Ironic that they run commercials and their livelihood comes from major corporations. But I digress)

At a bar, not one person is going to get agitated, leave, or berate the band because they "won't shut up about the drinks and play some more Brown Eyed Girl". People (most people) just aren't that easily offended. They realize what's going on and they are OK with it. If you ARE that easily offended, I would argue that the problem is not the guy on the mic, but rather YOUR anti-commercial overly sensitive way of looking at business (including the music business..... and it is a business) in general.

Here's the dirty little secret that most musicians don't want to admit. You are NOT hired by ANY BAR to ENTERTAIN ANYONE. You are HIRED to SELL DRINKS and get people to PAY to get in (if they charge a cover). Not one single bar owner gives a crap about your music, your "artistic expression", your creativity, or how many 1/32 notes per second you can play. They want you to MAKE THEM MONEY. Whatever that takes is up to you. But plugging what they are trying to sell just seems like a really easy way to not only get it done, but prove to the owner that you CARE what they are trying to do as much as you care who just saw/heard you play that killer riff with the best skinny jeans and really "ironically clever" T-shirt on.

Just sayin..........

[ErikW]

Originally Posted by two fingers

There seems to be a very "anti-commercial anti-corporate anti-profit" sentiment here at TB. If you wear the wrong freaking SHIRT on stage you are "selling out". I don't think that is the case with the main stream.

(To watch most media outlets, however, one could be lead to believe that ALL sales, profit, selling, commercials, money, and business is bad. Ironic that they run commercials and their livelihood comes from major corporations. But I digress)

At a bar, not one person is going to get agitated, leave, or berate the band because they "won't shut up about the drinks and play some more Brown Eyed Girl". People (most people) just aren't that easily offended. They realize what's going on and they are OK with it. If you ARE that easily offended, I would argue that the problem is not the guy on the mic, but rather YOUR anti-commercial overly sensitive way of looking at business (including the music business..... and it is a business) in general.

Here's the dirty little secret that most musicians don't want to admit. You are NOT hired by ANY BAR to ENTERTAIN ANYONE. You are HIRED to SELL DRINKS and get people to PAY to get in (if they charge a cover). Not one single bar owner gives a crap about your music, your "artistic expression", your creativity, or how many 1/32 notes per second you can play. They want you to MAKE THEM MONEY. Whatever that takes is up to you. But plugging what they are trying to sell just seems like a really easy way to not only get it done, but prove to the owner that you CARE what they are trying to do as much as you care who just saw/heard you play that killer riff with the best skinny jeans and really "ironically clever" T-shirt on.

Just sayin..........

Well said. However, there are a couple of bar owners where we play that like our band and the music we play. Of course the bottom line is always a factor. They call us for dates though. Might have something to do with the female lead singer too

[CraigTB]

Originally Posted by two fingers

There seems to be a very "anti-commercial anti-corporate anti-profit" sentiment here at TB. If you wear the wrong freaking SHIRT on stage you are "selling out". I don't think that is the case with the main stream.

(To watch most media outlets, however, one could be lead to believe that ALL sales, profit, selling, commercials, money, and business is bad. Ironic that they run commercials and their livelihood comes from major corporations. But I digress)

At a bar, not one person is going to get agitated, leave, or berate the band because they "won't shut up about the drinks and play some more Brown Eyed Girl". People (most people) just aren't that easily offended. They realize what's going on and they are OK with it. If you ARE that easily offended, I would argue that the problem is not the guy on the mic, but rather YOUR anti-commercial overly sensitive way of looking at business (including the music business..... and it is a business) in general.

Here's the dirty little secret that most musicians don't want to admit. You are NOT hired by ANY BAR to ENTERTAIN ANYONE. You are HIRED to SELL DRINKS and get people to PAY to get in (if they charge a cover). Not one single bar owner gives a crap about your music, your "artistic expression", your creativity, or how many 1/32 notes per second you can play. They want you to MAKE THEM MONEY. Whatever that takes is up to you. But plugging what they are trying to sell just seems like a really easy way to not only get it done, but prove to the owner that you CARE what they are trying to do as much as you care who just saw/heard you play that killer riff with the best skinny jeans and really "ironically clever" T-shirt on.

Just sayin..........

Yeah but it depends on the context.

If I'm watching some fun covers band playing up-tempo party music and the room is jumping, then I wouldn't blink at the guy with the mic working to drum up a little more biz for the bar, even if s/he's being purposely a little cheesy about it.

If I'm seeing a folk guy playing a bunch of Bob Dylan covers to a quiet respectful room, then him stopping every few songs to lay down some cheesy pitch about his favorite drink could be quite off-putting. Though if he's good, he can figure out a way to do it properly without interrupting the flow.

There's a million different contexts and a million different ways to help sales from the stage. Some combos will work, some won't.

It's not a binary thing - it's not the cheesey sell-outs pushing drinks versus the stuckup hipsters with skinny jeans.

But I'd expect most people would agree that keeping the bar happy is better for the band. Then the art of it is finding what works for your band and what works for the room you're in that night.

[two fingers]

Originally Posted by CraigTB

Yeah but it depends on the context.

If I'm watching some fun covers band playing up-tempo party music and the room is jumping, then I wouldn't blink at the guy with the mic working to drum up a little more biz for the bar, even if s/he's being purposely a little cheesy about it.

If I'm seeing a folk guy playing a bunch of Bob Dylan covers to a quiet respectful room, then him stopping every few songs to lay down some cheesy pitch about his favorite drink could be quite off-putting. Though if he's good, he can figure out a way to do it properly without interrupting the flow.

There's a million different contexts and a million different ways to help sales from the stage. Some combos will work, some won't.

It's not a binary thing - it's not the cheesey sell-outs pushing drinks versus the stuckup hipsters with skinny jeans.

But I'd expect most people would agree that keeping the bar happy is better for the band. Then the art of it is finding what works for your band and what works for the room you're in that night.

Yep. The whole "skinny jeans" thing is just my brand of sarcasm. I'm not "vs" or "against" anyone's fashion choices or even their music. Your post was well stated and more subtle than my writing style.

[electracoyote]

Originally Posted by CraigTB

If I'm seeing a folk guy playing a bunch of Bob Dylan covers to a quiet respectful room, then him stopping every few songs to lay down some cheesy pitch about his favorite drink could be quite off-putting.

Obvious exaggeration. I don't think anyone on either of these "open letter" threads, including the bar owner who wrote the letter, was suggesting anything of the sort.

[CraigTB]

Hey thanks for the compliment two fingers, I'm going to print that out and show it to my wife the next time she calls me an ******* ha ha.

I didn't mean to call you out specifically with the skinny jeans thing. I was trying to make just as much of a point to anyone reading your OP and picturing you as some kind of cheeseball sellout just because they disagreed or misunderstood what you were saying.

[TRichardsbass]

Originally Posted by two fingers

There seems to be a very "anti-commercial anti-corporate anti-profit" sentiment here at TB. If you wear the wrong freaking SHIRT on stage you are "selling out". I don't think that is the case with the main stream.

(To watch most media outlets, however, one could be lead to believe that ALL sales, profit, selling, commercials, money, and business is bad. Ironic that they run commercials and their livelihood comes from major corporations. But I digress)

At a bar, not one person is going to get agitated, leave, or berate the band because they "won't shut up about the drinks and play some more Brown Eyed Girl". People (most people) just aren't that easily offended. They realize what's going on and they are OK with it. If you ARE that easily offended, I would argue that the problem is not the guy on the mic, but rather YOUR anti-commercial overly sensitive way of looking at business (including the music business..... and it is a business) in general.

Here's the dirty little secret that most musicians don't want to admit. You are NOT hired by ANY BAR to ENTERTAIN ANYONE. You are HIRED to SELL DRINKS and get people to PAY to get in (if they charge a cover). Not one single bar owner gives a crap about your music, your "artistic expression", your creativity, or how many 1/32 notes per second you can play. They want you to MAKE THEM MONEY. Whatever that takes is up to you. But plugging what they are trying to sell just seems like a really easy way to not only get it done, but prove to the owner that you CARE what they are trying to do as much as you care who just saw/heard you play that killer riff with the best skinny jeans and really "ironically clever" T-shirt on.

Just sayin..........

Makes me proud and also makes me think that people actually read what I post...

[jungleheat]

So because I think bands should take a measured and tactful approach to how much they are going to shill for the bar during their performance I'm anti-profit? Wow. I just want my art and my commerce separated as much as possible, that's all. I mean, by all means, add some art to your commerce, but adding commerce to art just makes it kind of nauseating (kind of like pouring motor oil on your breakfast cereal).

Anyway, the anti-corporate sentiment isnt just here on TB, it's all across the the US these days (and probably other places). Have you SEEN the news lately? Record profits AND record unemployment means something a little fishy is going on.

Oh, and to the point about "you are hired to sell alcohol", how many people do you think ever say to their friends, "hey guys, let's go out tonight and watch live beer ads!"?

[TRichardsbass]

Originally Posted by jungleheat

So because I think bands should take a measured and tactful approach to how much they are going to shill for the bar during their performance I'm anti-profit? Wow. I just want my art and my commerce separated as much as possible, that's all. I mean, by all means, add some art to your commerce, but adding commerce to art just makes it kind of nauseating (kind of like pouring motor oil on your breakfast cereal).

Anyway, the anti-corporate sentiment isnt just here on TB, it's all across the the US these days (and probably other places). Have you SEEN the news lately? Record profits AND record unemployment means something a little fishy is going on.

Oh, and to the point about "you are hired to sell alcohol", how many people do you think ever say to their friends, "hey guys, let's go out tonight and watch live beer ads!"?

I get confused when guys say playing covers is "art." It ain't art, it ain't your art.

No one ever says you have to be a live beer ad, but even if you are my friends in the E Street Band, you have to put on a show. You are there to not only make money for you, but also for your manager, the venue, the promoter. At that level, of course, its easier to preserve your "art"

I laugh though, because just about every band I know will pump the crap out of their CD's and Merch throughout their shows. Same crap. And you are using the venue's tables, electricity and space to do it. What is the difference between saying, "hey, we have our new release available at the merch table today for only $5, and T-shirts tonight only are $15" and saying "there is a Stagg shot special for the next two songs. Get them for only $4 from now until we end the set."

Honestly, a band that pumps their merch from the stage is more of a turn off then them telling me the bar has a drink special.

So, I'm adding to the rule. If you are allowed to and pump your own merch, then you can pump the bars merch too.

[Mattosaur]

Any thoughts on tactful ways to pitch a drink special during an originals act, where there's the perception of "cred" at stake? My instinct is to make it personal, like telling a story about a mean drink the bartender (who's name you should find out first) made you before the set.

Any other ideas?

[electracoyote]

Originally Posted by Mattosaur

Any thoughts on tactful ways to pitch a drink special during an originals act, where there's the perception of "cred" at stake? My instinct is to make it personal, like telling a story about a mean drink the bartender (who's name you should find out first) made you before the set.

Any other ideas?

You're on the right track. That's perfect.

Also, how many audience members are you really going to lose cred with? I mean, I've seen some acts do and say some stupid uncool things, but sliding in a shout out for the bar or drink special is not one of them.

Raise your glass, propose a toast. The people with nothing in their hands will get the hint. Sky's the limit.

[LiquidMidnight]

Originally Posted by TRichardsbass

I get confused when guys say playing covers is "art." It ain't art, it ain't your art.

No one ever says you have to be a live beer ad, but even if you are my friends in the E Street Band, you have to put on a show. You are there to not only make money for you, but also for your manager, the venue, the promoter. At that level, of course, its easier to preserve your "art"

I laugh though, because just about every band I know will pump the crap out of their CD's and Merch throughout their shows. Same crap. And you are using the venue's tables, electricity and space to do it. What is the difference between saying, "hey, we have our new release available at the merch table today for only $5, and T-shirts tonight only are $15" and saying "there is a Stagg shot special for the next two songs. Get them for only $4 from now until we end the set."

Honestly, a band that pumps their merch from the stage is more of a turn off then them telling me the bar has a drink special.

So, I'm adding to the rule. If you are allowed to and pump your own merch, then you can pump the bars merch too.

This, like +10,000

This whole art or commercialism thing is a complete false dichotomy. My more pretentious friends would disagree, but it's entirely possible to have both. You just have to be real with what another poster said - you are ultimately being hired to make someone else money. You have to do the artistic side of things entirely for yourself (and hopefully the public will join you on your artistic journey).

[HailCorduroy]

Reporting in from Nashville, home of a million wanna-bes who will play for free to 2 people, thinking 1 of them might be a famous producer. Gigs aren't easy to find around here and they don't pay much. Me and one of the guitarists went on a sales blitz last night. We hit 6 bars that we haven't played before and dropped off a flyer with our info and a demo CD. The CD has 1 track with a medley of 7 songs. It's less than 5 minutes (about as much time as they are willing to listen).

We went in to each place, bought a beer and sat and talked with the bartender or manager about what we do, what their bar is like, etc. I borrowed a bit from this article and told them that we would work with them and announce drink specials or push certain drinks that made them more money. I made sure to say that we wanted them to make more money while we were playing than if we weren't. One place booked us on the spot without even checking our demo. He asked our price and I could tell Dave was hemming and hawing, so I threw out a range that is $50-$150 higher than we've been making. The manager didn't even blink and said that would be fine.

One place doesn't have live music anymore because they don't have sprinklers. Sad too, because they have a nice stage. All the others, we left our info and now wait to see if they get back to us. One balked at our price, but we said we were open to negotiation. She said they often do a base rate with incentives based on head count/sales. We'll see if they call us back.

[MarkMgibson]

[electracoyote]

Originally Posted by HailCorduroy

I made sure to say that we wanted them to make more money while we were playing than if we weren't. One place booked us on the spot without even checking our demo. He asked our price and I could tell Dave was hemming and hawing, so I threw out a range that is $50-$150 higher than we've been making. The manager didn't even blink and said that would be fine.

You said the magic words dude. Congrats.

And this is Nashville, where bands are literally crawling out of the woodwork.

Get in the barkeep's corner, let him know you're on his side and willing to help him meet his goals. Save that rock star poser crap for, well, for when you're actually a rock star.

At this point in our careers, most of us need to be more business-oriented.