It works! Open letter..... part 2

[Bassamatic]

HE SAID - Here's the dirty little secret that most musicians don't want to admit. You are NOT hired by ANY BAR to ENTERTAIN ANYONE. You are HIRED to SELL DRINKS and get people to PAY to get in (if they charge a cover). Not one single bar owner gives a crap about your music, your "artistic expression", your creativity, or how many 1/32 notes per second you can play. They want you to MAKE THEM MONEY. Whatever that takes is up to you. But plugging what they are trying to sell just seems like a really easy way to not only get it done, but prove to the owner that you CARE what they are trying to do as much as you care who just saw/heard you play that killer riff with the best skinny jeans and really "ironically clever" T-shirt on.

ABSOLUTELY. It is all about bottom line. If theirs is bigger, you will work and yours will be bigger. Simple. It is nice to be altruistic and be there for the music, but someone has to pay the bills. Even making it clear that you will do your best to help will help you.

[MarkMgibson]

Personally, I wouldn't be volunteering to shill for the bar (they have staff to do that, and neon signs), but each to their own. But I really don't understand your objection to the word "art". Do you think Ray Charles singing Eleanor Rigby isn't' "artistic" because he didn't write it?

I've spent many thousands of hours practising and rehearsing, and while I didn't write the music I play, I still interpret it in my own way. There are songs I've played hundreds of times, but I never play them the same way twice. I don't get why you don't consider musicians as artists, no matter what they're playing. I guarantee that those who can't play music do consider what we do an art, and most of them envy our ability.

[jmattbassplaya]

Originally Posted by Bassamatic

HE SAID - Here's the dirty little secret that most musicians don't want to admit. You are NOT hired by ANY BAR to ENTERTAIN ANYONE. You are HIRED to SELL DRINKS and get people to PAY to get in (if they charge a cover). Not one single bar owner gives a crap about your music, your "artistic expression", your creativity, or how many 1/32 notes per second you can play. They want you to MAKE THEM MONEY. Whatever that takes is up to you. But plugging what they are trying to sell just seems like a really easy way to not only get it done, but prove to the owner that you CARE what they are trying to do as much as you care who just saw/heard you play that killer riff with the best skinny jeans and really "ironically clever" T-shirt on.

ABSOLUTELY. It is all about bottom line. If theirs is bigger, you will work and yours will be bigger. Simple. It is nice to be altruistic and be there for the music, but someone has to pay the bills. Even making it clear that you will do your best to help will help you.

I don't quite agree. Entertaining people and selling drinks often go hand in hand. If people are having fun and are being entertained then they'll be more likely to stick around and thus buy more drinks. If they aren't entertained then they'll likely leave for greener pastures and will purchase their drinks elsewhere.

[TRCat]

I've followed the "Open Letter" thread and came over to read about the OP's success story! Well done mate!

I must say first and foremost that I agree 100% with the bar owner. I would never hire an accountant who came to me with the right look, the right briefcase, the right haircut and told me about how l should appreciate how many years he/she took to earn their license. Nope, I'll hire the person who saves me the most money, who gets me the biggest return, FULL STOP!

Quick Soapbox:

I came to playing bass late in life and do it as a hobby. In the last few years I've learned a lot - mostly my keeping my ears open and mouth relatively shut! However, in this case I'll open my pie hole...just a bit to convey a few points I've learned.

1. Thou shall not "piss in the pool!" I will not undercut those of you who do this for a living. Not that my current band is the same league with professionals but you get my drift. My current cover band gigs 1-2 month and we go out for nothing less than $75 per person (5-peice) for 2 x 45min sets.

2. A happy customer is a repeat customer. My job is to make 3 people happy...in THIS order: The bar, the audience, and my band. So, if someone gives me the answers to the "test" - in this case the bar owner and the OP on this thread, then I'd be a fool not to take it and at least try it out?!

3. I've followed and listened to a lot of very smart, experienced people who have a closet full of those proverbial T-shirts. In this case, I'll name check and throw kudos to a fellow Jersey Boy - TRichardsbass for keeping it real...with sage advice. When he, along with some of the other "old heads" speaks, I immediately go into EF Hutton mode! But that's just me.

4. Finally, and this may generate some heat seeking missiles my way, but remember I'm in a cover band too, is the question regarding playing covers and art. Hmmmm, yeah sure... if you consider someone who paints by numbers an artist. So what, you swap #9 for #3 it still ain't your canvas! So let's keep it real folks!

But hey, who am to join the arm-twisting gang. If they don't see this concept as a winner, or at least worth serious consideration, so be it - more pudding for the rest of us!

TRCat

[jmattbassplaya]

Originally Posted by TRCat

I've followed the "Open Letter" thread and came over to read about the OP's success story! Well done mate!

I must say first and foremost that I agree 100% with the bar owner. I would never hire an accountant who came to me with the right look, the right briefcase, the right haircut and told me about how l should appreciate how many years he/she took to earn their license. Nope, I'll hire the person who saves me the most money, who gets me the biggest return, FULL STOP!

Quick Soapbox:

I came to playing bass late in life and do it as a hobby. In the last few years I've learned a lot - mostly my keeping my ears open and mouth relatively shut! However, in this case I'll open my pie hole...just a bit to convey a few points I've learned.

1. Thou shall not "piss in the pool!" I will not undercut those of you who do this for a living. Not that my current band is the same league with professionals but you get my drift. My current cover band gigs 1-2 month and we go out for nothing less than $75 per person (5-peice) for 2 x 45min sets.

2. A happy customer is a repeat customer. My job is to make 3 people happy...in THIS order: The bar, the audience, and my band. So, if someone gives me the answers to the "test" - in this case the bar owner and the OP on this thread, then I'd be a fool not to take it and at least try it out?!

3. I've followed and listened to a lot of very smart, experienced people who have a closet full of those proverbial T-shirts. In this case, I'll name check and throw kudos to a fellow Jersey Boy - TRichardsbass for keeping it real...with sage advice. When he, along with some of the other "old heads" speaks, I immediately go into EF Hutton mode! But that's just me.

4. Finally, and this may generate some heat seeking missiles my way, but remember I'm in a cover band too, is the question regarding playing covers and art. Hmmmm, yeah sure... if you consider someone who paints by numbers an artist. So what, you swap #9 for #3 it still ain't your canvas! So let's keep it real folks!

But hey, who am to join the arm-twisting gang. If they don't see this concept as a winner, or at least worth serious consideration, so be it - more pudding for the rest of us!

TRCat

I just don't agree with that. My reasoning is that if the audience is happy then won't they themselves make the bar happy by buying more drinks and by eventually inviting all their friends out to this bar they had such a great time at and can't wait to get back to? A happy audience member almost always equals an audience member with loose purse strings to by booze and food.

Or how about this, have you ever seen a band perform when it was very obvious one or more members of the band weren't happy to be there? Sometimes it can make for some funny situations, but a lot of times it turns crowds off and can force some people to leave the bar. That hurts crowd interaction, which hurts how happy the audience can get, which hurts bar sales.

I know how bad this is going to sound and I'm going to have a lot of people judge me for this () but I saw a Dr. Phil episode a few years ago while channel surfing, and he said something unique in regards to parents and child raising that has stuck with me in a lot of aspects of my life. What he said was that parents (bands) need to take care of themselves first. If they're happy and are operating like a well-oiled machine then they will be best able to tackle any situation that arises. If not, then they will likely have internal conflicts (between members) and they will run the risk of things falling apart or not working as smoothly. A happy band will be more willing to work with venue owners, and a happy band will be more able to put on a great show that everyone will want to come back and see.

[jungleheat]

I totally agree with that last bit about parents.

[TRCat]

Originally Posted by jmattbassplaya

I just don't agree with that. My reasoning is that if the audience is happy then won't they themselves make the bar happy by buying more drinks and by eventually inviting all their friends out to this bar they had such a great time at and can't wait to get back to? A happy audience member almost always equals an audience member with loose purse strings to by booze and food.

Or how about this, have you ever seen a band perform when it was very obvious one or more members of the band weren't happy to be there? Sometimes it can make for some funny situations, but a lot of times it turns crowds off and can force some people to leave the bar. That hurts crowd interaction, which hurts how happy the audience can get, which hurts bar sales.

I know how bad this is going to sound and I'm going to have a lot of people judge me for this () but I saw a Dr. Phil episode a few years ago while channel surfing, and he said something unique in regards to parents and child raising that has stuck with me in a lot of aspects of my life. What he said was that parents (bands) need to take care of themselves first. If they're happy and are operating like a well-oiled machine then they will be best able to tackle any situation that arises. If not, then they will likely have internal conflicts (between members) and they will run the risk of things falling apart or not working as smoothly. A happy band will be more willing to work with venue owners, and a happy band will be more able to put on a great show that everyone will want to come back and see.

Fair enough JMatt - we're not too far apart.

Your contention about a happy band being a productive band - no one can argue with, I agree totally. In my opinion, you put the pieces together and ensure everybody is reading fully from the same sheet of... BEFORE you hit the street. Everybody MUST buy into the vision and business model. So, if everybody is comfortable with this then your gtg.

As an aside, and another reason I'm buying into this is although I've only been playing bass/playing out for a short time, I've been going out listening to music since the mid-70's. It's the the Dylan song Jmatt! "The times, they HAVE changed!" It's DJ Dubstep, Open Mic Mike, Quiz Night Quentin and Karaoke Kenzo who will snatch the dwindling milk money from your cold, unemployed hand quicker than you can say "I won't do announ..."

I've only been living my mid-life crisis for a few years. Far be it from me to even begin to lecture, or lock horns with guy's who've been playing out for decades. I just tried to walk in the bar owners shoes and noted his concerns are real, AND his other options are viable. We, as a community would do well to at least consider and debate the issue - which we're doing at present, in a very civil manner.

Now as to Dr. Phil...

[TRichardsbass]

First of all, I am glad to see that two guys have taken all the posts to heart, and one of them has made a dent in Nashvegas! Way to go!

Thanks TRCat, from your side of the pond. I am humbled.

As for Dr. Phil, even he "shills". He is constantly talking up that addiction place, because they are also paid sponsors. They don't do that stuff gratis, honestly. He shills more and more.

Yes, a band has to be its best, but that isn't enough. One of the best bands I've ever seen is Screaming Broccoli. Great cover band. But they are way too into themselves, and don't do any of the things these posts suggest. They don't get booked nearly what they used to because they don't draw and don't sell. The other dirty secret, if you don't draw well, but bring in regularly say 30 people who do buy booze, you will get booked more then the blues band that draws 100 but the crowd are all recovering addicts.

As for playing guitar as your art, I've been around way too long. Even Clapton doesn't think of it as art. Its his money maker, and he'll tell you that. So would the other Richards, and hell, you want it validated? Ask Gene Simmons.

Finally, there is hope for humanity.... ;-)

[Gopherbassist]

Originally Posted by jmattbassplaya

I know how bad this is going to sound and I'm going to have a lot of people judge me for this () but I saw a Dr. Phil episode a few years ago while channel surfing, and he said something unique in regards to parents and child raising that has stuck with me in a lot of aspects of my life. What he said was that parents (bands) need to take care of themselves first. If they're happy and are operating like a well-oiled machine then they will be best able to tackle any situation that arises. If not, then they will likely have internal conflicts (between members) and they will run the risk of things falling apart or not working as smoothly. A happy band will be more willing to work with venue owners, and a happy band will be more able to put on a great show that everyone will want to come back and see.

That's actually a very good point you make. However, with regards to what you quoted and the advice you've given, I'd say that up on stage if you're in a bar, you've passed the point of taking care of the band and entered into a situation where its now time to take care of the kids, in that case the bar and the audience/patrons.

The band should have lots of time to take care of its self, such as practice, band meetings, and commuting if the members do that together. The time to prepare for the show and make sure that everyone is up for it and going to have a good time is before the show. Once you're there, all your preparation goes towards the things that you need to do to make sure others are happy.

That's my take on your food for thought.

[Staccato]

After the dance floor is crowded, play a fifth song that runs them off. Kidding!

[electracoyote]

People in bars are oblivious. They usually don't know about drink and food specials. They sometimes don't think to order another drink. They'll sit there and nurse a glass of ice water instead. An occasional gentle reminder can only help, even if the band is doing its job as entertainers.

It certainly can't hurt.

[ssabass]

Actually you ARE hired to entertain. Show up with your band and gear and do nothing but pitch drinks at the mic and see how long that lasts. It's a symbiotic relationship. You benefit the establishment if your entertainment is good and people stay and drink. You benefit yourselves through artistic expression, the joy of making music. You sell drinks by keeping people there with live music.

[two fingers]

Originally Posted by ssabass

Actually you ARE hired to entertain. Show up with your band and gear and do nothing but pitch drinks at the mic and see how long that lasts. It's a symbiotic relationship. You benefit the establishment if your entertainment is good and people stay and drink. You benefit yourselves through artistic expression, the joy of making music. You sell drinks by keeping people there with live music.

I totally disagree. If you were to show up with your gear, set up, and never play a note, but in stead told jokes, I would argue that the bar owner wouldn't give a crap and he would have you back in a second, AS LONG AS YOU SOLD A LOT OF DRINKS. The entertainment is the MEANS to sell drinks. And that, AGAIN, is ALL the owner cares about. You do NOT "sell" drinks by keeping people there. I can watch a band for four hours and never get a drink. You sell drinks by SELLING drinks. Again, some of us are OK with it, and some of us are "too cool".

[mellowinman]

I am willing to put on such an entertaining show that it will sell drinks. I have accepted that if I want to play my music in a bar, that is what I am stuck with.

I will NEVER pitch alcohol to people. Alcohol is poison, and most people who come to bars drink far too much of it. Every year, thousands of people are killed in drunk-driving fatalities; thousands more destroy their organs; and millions destroy their lives. I have lost a lot of people I care about due to liquor. And I only play in bars because we are forced to.

I know that will give plenty of you reason to criticize me, and please, FEEL FREE. I don't mind at all. I am unhappy that the reason I am playing music is to sell alcohol. I wish it was just to entertain people. But you have to draw the line somewhere, and I assure you, I will go to my grave without encouraging anyone to take a drink, or do a shot, or whatever.

[ssabass]

Originally Posted by two fingers

I totally disagree. If you were to show up with your gear, set up, and never play a note, but in stead told jokes, I would argue that the bar owner wouldn't give a crap and he would have you back in a second, AS LONG AS YOU SOLD A LOT OF DRINKS. The entertainment is the MEANS to sell drinks. And that, AGAIN, is ALL the owner cares about. You do NOT "sell" drinks by keeping people there. I can watch a band for four hours and never get a drink. You sell drinks by SELLING drinks. Again, some of us are OK with it, and some of us are "too cool".

We are talking about two different things really. You are talking about the bar owners perspective, which is appropriate given the article the op is talking about. Maybe I'm out in left field here- I'm talking about what would be the musicians perspective. I don't practice bass and music to sell drinks for the sake of selling drinks, nor would I characterize that as what I'm doing. Drinks are or are not sold at venues that I perform at. I have no problem encouraging people to eat and drink, in fact I have many times. But I considered my job to sweat the music and give my all to it.

[ssabass]

Two Fingers- did you read the 'original' article that started to 'war'?
Enjoy-
A Message to Club Owners

[SquierJazz72]

Sometimes it can make for some funny situations, but a lot of times it turns crowds off and can force some people to leave the bar.

Unfortunately(and mercifully, only once) I saw a band so bad and lackluster that the owner ejected them and closed early, as they actually caused almost everybody to leave within an hour.

[electracoyote]

Originally Posted by mellowinman

I am willing to put on such an entertaining show that it will sell drinks.

If that works for you, congrats.

Fact is, it's not enough for many bands, and it's not enough for many venue owners.

[Luke19Boarder]

Originally Posted by ssabass

Actually you ARE hired to entertain. Show up with your band and gear and do nothing but pitch drinks at the mic and see how long that lasts. It's a symbiotic relationship. You benefit the establishment if your entertainment is good and people stay and drink. You benefit yourselves through artistic expression, the joy of making music. You sell drinks by keeping people there with live music.

at that point, you would even be an ineffective liquor salesman ...

[VinKreepo]

Originally Posted by two fingers

Sorry guy. I just started a new semester and four different kinds of math has me on edge. My knee jerked. Thanks.

I was a math major... I know how you feel