Worship bassists opinion please...

[darkfinger]

Hey there,
I was recently perusing the bassist wanted ads at the music store the other day and came across an ad for a church gig...3 hours every sunday for pay....
I called and left a message and when they got back to me they asked me about my beliefs to which I responded that I wasn`t particularily religious but that wouldn`t stop me from playing worship music....They seemed a little hesitant but then offered for me to come down and talk with them....
So I guess here`s my question:
How would you guys (and gals) feel if a non religious musician was brought in to fill one of the seats in your worship band?
I need the money but part of me feels kinda bad gigging for pay at a church when I know that I only see it as a job and everyone else is doing it for a deeper reason....plus I don`t want to get involved in any drama when its just supposed to be a paying gig.

[Dave Muscato]

I've run into this problem. As far as I understand it, around these parts, it's illegal for them to require you to be a certain religion, or even religious at all, or even to ask you if you are religious or what religion you belong to, if they are paying you. I see that you are in Canada, and I don't know the laws up there, but here in the USA, even asking about it is strictly prohibited:

http://www.eeoc.gov/types/religion.html

[RADUB1]

I can give you my opinion, but it really varies from church to church. The thing to remember is that playing a church is ANYTHING but a money gig. Me personally, would have a problem with an as you call it "non-religious" person taking a role with our worship team. Please, no flaming here...I am not knocking anyone as a person or a player, but please remember that a church is a sacred place to people who believe and it is a private place. It should not be an "equal opportunity employer". I feel that the music is just as important as the word being preached......and you wouldn;t let anyone who had a skill in public speaking get up and give the sermon would you? Again, I am not knocking, or insulting the OP...please don;t take it as such. He asked for our personal opinion on what sometimes is a sensitive subject.

[shamrock&roll]

Given the separation of church and state and that most churches operate as private non-profits, it would be really hard legally to pursue anything about them inquiring about your beliefs.

Regardless, it would be a little awkward to have someone leading them in worship that isn't actually worshipping. I've known musicians that enjoyed the music, but felt conflicted. Their actions would be viewed by the congregation outside of church and if their actions didn't line up with the church's beliefs, there would be a chance of drama. Most didn't end up working there for too long as musicians. I even know "Christian bands" that aren't even Christians themselves. There are others who worked behind the scenes that weren't Christian such as engineers, but they weren't in the public eye as much. Even that got a little weird when a 24 year old employee started dating a 15 year old in the congregation. He no longer works there.

[tony c]

Let me preface this by saying that in the church where I was the worship leader, our musicians (including me) didn't get paid - all volunteer.

I had a pastor once who asked me, as the worship leader, to go out and hire non-Christian musicians for our worship team, because he felt that the music needed to be "more contemporary" and that we needed horns to make it sound that way. I told him that I wouldn't do that, explained to him why, and then another pastor conferred with him, and he withdrew his request.

Without quoting scriptrure and verse, I will tell you that I personally would have a problem with someone who didn't share the same faith/beliefs that I did playing music with me for the purpose of entering into worship. As a worship leader, I'm supposed to lead by example. My team members are also supposed to lead by example. How can we lead the congregation into worship if we as a team aren't all spiritually heading in the same direction? Considering the amount of time a worship team spends in prayer before practice and/or before a service, I would imagine that it might be somewhat uncomfortable for someone who doesn't share the same beliefs. I know, for me, many years ago, it certainly was! I couldn't understand what all that praying was about!

Given that, however, I wouldn't think twice about getting together with musicians who had different beliefs than I, and in fact, invited musicians to my church on a Friday night when nothing else was going on just to jam. I didn't care what their beliefs were, as long as they came to play, have a good time, and were respectful of the environment they had entered. We didn't just play "church" music. And we had a blast!

So, darkfinger, I'd jam with you, go to a coffeehouse with you and do an acoustic gig, and have a Molson's non-alchoholic beer with you, but I wouldn't invite you to help lead my congregation in worship with me. We still friends?

[darkfinger]

Originally Posted by tony c

So, darkfinger, I'd jam with you, go to a coffeehouse with you and do an acoustic gig, and have a Molson's non-alchoholic beer with you, but I wouldn't invite you to help lead my congregation in worship with me. We still friends?

Hahahaha, you got it buddy!

No all the responses are what I expected kind of... I feel conflicted about the situation, although I do like to play I guess it`s more of a personal thing for most people in a worship band....
The money isn`t great that she`s offering however it`s better than not making cash for a few hours of work....however it`s way less than what I`d make doing a covers gig for the same hours of work.
Thanks to everyone for their responses....I think I need to meet the band and the bandleader to make a real decision but I think you guys are probably right in saying that there would be drama especially if I was the only one getting paid....and that`s the religious question aside.

[Chad.mundt]

There is something to be said, though, that being paid for a gig is A GIG, not worship. If you want to play music for worship, go ahead, but I do not think you should be paid unless it is equal opportunity. Being a part of a religious organization should not make you an exception to employment laws.

[Chad.mundt]

Originally Posted by darkfinger

Hahahaha, you got it buddy!

No all the responses are what I expected kind of... I feel conflicted about the situation, although I do like to play I guess it`s more of a personal thing for most people in a worship band....
The money isn`t great that she`s offering however it`s better than not making cash for a few hours of work....however it`s way less than what I`d make doing a covers gig for the same hours of work.
Thanks to everyone for their responses....I think I need to meet the band and the bandleader to make a real decision but I think you guys are probably right in saying that there would be drama especially if I was the only one getting paid....and that`s the religious question aside.

Honestly, I've found that you are expected to be there for worship purposes. And, because of the nature of the gig, a specific requirement would seem to be your religion. I doubt a preacher could hold his job if he was found to be Muslim. Same difference. As my last post said, I find it to be a problem that churches hire musicians with preference to faith. I guarantee that there are religious musicians to be found.

That being said, I consider it unprofessional to accept a church gig without belief. I have turned down many a gig because I am not a Christian.

[Rattman]

Originally Posted by Dave Muscato

I've run into this problem. As far as I understand it, around these parts, it's illegal for them to require you to be a certain religion, or even religious at all, or even to ask you if you are religious or what religion you belong to, if they are paying you. I see that you are in Canada, and I don't know the laws up there, but here in the USA, even asking about it is strictly prohibited:

http://www.eeoc.gov/types/religion.html

I dunno what churches you are talking about in the USA, but I've NEVER auditioned for a praise team bassist or guitarist positions without the team lead and the pastor BOTH saying that ONLY believers would ever play on the praise teams. There was never any mention of a "law" concerning such postings either. Yes.. it would indeed cause immediate issues if non-believers were to be intergrated.. I can see nothing but problems arising from that.

[jlaws]

Maybe it'd be ok if you did the gig with a mind open to conversion, but I think it would be awkard playing in a worship band if you weren't really worshipping and didn't care at all about the religious aspect of the music. Not that you're doing anything wrong by doing so, but it's comparable to playing in a band in an event to save the whales when really you could care less if the whales were safe or made into perfume. just my 2c.

[JansenW]

Through music, the worship team brings the people into a "place" worship. How can you bring them "there" if you don't go "there" yourself?

[Dave Muscato]

Originally Posted by Rattman

I dunno what churches you are talking about in the USA, but I've NEVER auditioned for a praise team bassist or guitarist positions without the team lead and the pastor BOTH saying that ONLY believers would ever play on the praise teams. There was never any mention of a "law" concerning such postings either. Yes.. it would indeed cause immediate issues if non-believers were to be intergrated.. I can see nothing but problems arising from that.

I'm not saying it wouldn't be ideal if everyone on the worship team was part of the religion in question, but to be in compliance with EEOC laws, as I understand it, they cannot require they you be in that (or any) religion, or even ask you about it. Many people are ignorant of the law; in most cases, it doesn't matter and nobody cares, but every once in awhile you get sued... better to be on top of these things, just in case.

[Spoiled Grape]

Why not lie?

I mean, I'm not trying to be insensitive, but I've done worship service before and just left after the service. I was always polite and respectful (minus the lying part).

In the end the money wasn't worth the early morning Sunday wake-up.

[dinghy]

Because lying is a sin.

Oh wait...

[MichaelVee]

In at least this one respect, I feel that a church band is no different than a 'regular' band. They can hire who they want, with whatever stipulations they want to have. If they want to hire a bassist who's a professing Christian, well, they ARE a church, and they can do that if they feel it's the right thing to do.

And on the other hand, there are many bands out there who wouldn't want to hire a overtly Christian or otherwise religious musician.

[Dr_Funkdamental]

Originally Posted by Spoiled Grape

Why not lie?

I mean, I'm not trying to be insensitive, but I've done worship service before and just left after the service. I was always polite and respectful (minus the lying part).

In the end the money wasn't worth the early morning Sunday wake-up.

Worst advice ever. Thats just disrespectful and uncalled for. Even when I wasnt a Christian I showed more respect to church.

Through music, the worship team brings the people into a "place" worship. How can you bring them "there" if you don't go "there" yourself?

+1000. Its more to a worship service than nice music. In church music is a ministry as well. I dont want to get too spiritually complex so thats about it. I will say talk the them though. You never know, maybe if you go in with a different attitude, you might come out with more than just money.

[theshadow2001]

As a person who doesn't want or need religion in his life, I feel that it would become quite uncomfortable being surrounded by overtly religious people especially in that sort of environment.

However a gig still is a gig and if your ok with that and they understand your not religious and are also ok with that, then there's no reason not to.

In my experience a regular gig usually comes at a reduced price but you do get the benefit of regularity so it balances out.

[ehque]

Originally Posted by Dave Muscato

I've run into this problem. As far as I understand it, around these parts, it's illegal for them to require you to be a certain religion, or even religious at all, or even to ask you if you are religious or what religion you belong to, if they are paying you. I see that you are in Canada, and I don't know the laws up there, but here in the USA, even asking about it is strictly prohibited:

http://www.eeoc.gov/types/religion.html

Originally Posted by Chad.mundt

There is something to be said, though, that being paid for a gig is A GIG, not worship. If you want to play music for worship, go ahead, but I do not think you should be paid unless it is equal opportunity. Being a part of a religious organization should not make you an exception to employment laws.

That is ridiculous. How do you guys employ pastors in those parts?

Personally, i think I'd agree with tony c. "I'd jam with you, go to a coffeehouse with you and do an acoustic gig, and have a Molson's non-alchoholic beer with you, but I wouldn't invite you to help lead my congregation in worship with me." Then again, i'm not prohibitionist, or whatever they call it, so i wouldn't even mind beer. (in moderation, though.)

My church has an expectation that musicians are born-again believers, and actively encourages musicians to be baptised.

[puff father]

Originally Posted by darkfinger

So I guess here`s my question:
How would you guys (and gals) feel if a non religious musician was brought in to fill one of the seats in your worship band?

Spiritual ramifications aside; I guess it wouldn't bother me much if it didn't bother them. If the person is militant anti-religious or an atheist I would think they were pretty lame to put themselves in that situation anyway. If they hear something they don't like while they are there..., well, duh! But it's up to the church if they want to hire someone who they hire is up to them.

At the church I play at it most likely wouldn't happen, but there are churches where they would feel that it's fine.

Originally Posted by darkfinger

I need the money but part of me feels kinda bad gigging for pay at a church when I know that I only see it as a job and everyone else is doing it for a deeper reason....plus I don`t want to get involved in any drama when its just supposed to be a paying gig.

Go talk to them, if it's going to get uncomfortable for you or them either they can hire someone else or you can turn in your notice after you have tried it for a while. IMO if they're going to hire someone in the first place it probably won't cause them much grief if your a believer or not but they're probably not looking for a dissenting voice. Their goal is to get a 'contemporary worship band' together to try to attract more people because statistically it makes sense to them. If it helps you out financially they can look at that as being their spiritual service to you.

FWIW: We have lot's of musicians at our church (at least four fine bassists) none of which have any problem with the church's belief statement, so it really doesn't apply here. Spiritually speaking, the unity in spirit of the worship teams is where it's at. That is what makes it a worship team.

Good luck,

Al

[darkfinger]

Originally Posted by JansenW

Through music, the worship team brings the people into a "place" worship. How can you bring them "there" if you don't go "there" yourself?

I don`t mean to be rude but isn`t that what a band does every night at a gig....I mean, I can think of several shows that I`ve played that I haven`t necessarily `felt` the music, but as a professional have been able to convince the listener (as much as anyone actually listens to bass ) that I am into what I`m playing...the important part is that the people get the vibe they want to from the show and come away with as much as they hoped.

I hear what you are all saying and I am totally not anti religious at all nor would I want to start a fight with people in the band...I`m just personally not religious....after reading all the responses I think I`ll probably bow out of the gig but I guess it`ll depend on how the meeting goes, but thanks everyone for their responses.