Writing for singer's key?

[behndy]

was wondering how many of y'all that do originals keep the keys that your singers are comfortable in mind when you're writing?

do you start out in a certain key? or do you mess around, find something you like, then transpose it?

yar!

[Jazzdogg]

Both!

[lunarpollen]

We don't care about keys when writing; for the most part we write the instrumental parts of the song and let the singer come up with a melody for his vocals, so it's never really an issue for us.

[Joe Nerve]

Most of the songs I've written have been without thinking about the key, but I'm stopping that, now. I've written a lot of stuff that was out of my range to sing, and when I transpose things a lot of time I lose the original feel, or excitement about what I'm writing. Probably something it would serve me well to get over, but none the less... I'm writing a bunch of songs right now, and I'm writing them in keys I can sing. It's easir and more fun for me like that.

[Coop Soup]

My singer has an absolutely enormous range. I think I'd be hard pressed to write something in the wrong key. It's a great problem to have.

[bassybill]

Originally Posted by Coop Soup

My singer has an absolutely enormous range. I think I'd be hard pressed to write something in the wrong key. It's a great problem to have.

Yeah, this is a good point - it's more about writing for the singer's range. The singer won't really have "a key" as such because the best key for them will vary from song to song.

[behndy]

Originally Posted by lunarpollen

We don't care about keys when writing; for the most part we write the instrumental parts of the song and let the singer come up with a melody for his vocals, so it's never really an issue for us.

this is how i work. i do a lot of the writing in my band right now, but i'm sort of a music theory idiot. i just keep plugging away till it sounds good to me.

Originally Posted by Joe Nerve

... and when I transpose things a lot of time I lose the original feel, or excitement about what I'm writing.

yesh! this is why i was asking! rarely does something sound "correct" to me if i have to move it after i figure it out.

Originally Posted by Coop Soup

My singer has an absolutely enormous range. I think I'd be hard pressed to write something in the wrong key. It's a great problem to have.

thpppppppbbbb!!! lulz. POOR POOR YOU!! yeah, HARD problem to have. noice!

Originally Posted by bassybill

Yeah, this is a good point - it's more about writing for the singer's range. The singer won't really have "a key" as such because the best key for them will vary from song to song.

true. that IS a way better way of phrasing it. thanks!

[ShoeManiac]

Originally Posted by bassybill

Yeah, this is a good point - it's more about writing for the singer's range. The singer won't really have "a key" as such because the best key for them will vary from song to song.

THIS.

My band has two singers. They're the ones who do the writing, but they have to work with each others' vocal ranges in mind. They also have significantly wide ranges, so we have some latitude in how a song gets shaped from the choice of the key to the arrangements.

When I write material on my own, I don't think so much about the key. I'm thinking of the song first. And even then, if I'm going to pass along the song to someone else things are not always set in stone. Songs can be transposed to keys that work better for different singers. Guitar players can use capos when needed. There are plenty of options.

[behndy]

something i run into is that i like atonal touches, like playing an open G with a C# fretted on the 11th of the D string, and that is a BITCH to move. stuff like that i kind of tell the singer "tough, figure it out". was wondering if most people try to keep that in mind and avoid situations like that?

[agreatheight]

I just write, usually in a range that feels comfortable to me, then I'll transpose it or tune down if necessary.

[Rob Martinez]

No. I write a song where I am comfortable singing it. If someone else sings it, then we change the key and transpose.

[Stick_Player]

Originally Posted by lunarpollen

We don't care about keys when writing; for the most part we write the instrumental parts of the song and let the singer come up with a melody for his vocals, so it's never really an issue for us.

If that's the case, your singer is songwriter (at least the credited "music" writer -- you know music and lyrics. Instrumental parts don't count, unless it's some sort of KEY element - such as the bass line to Pretty Woman.

You better get a written agreement that clearly states ALL music is equally split amongs ALL band members - songwriting (music and lyrics) and publishing.

It could become an issue.

[Unrepresented]

My last frontman was a capo warrior. He was the primary songwriter though, and came in with the ideas fairly fleshed out.

Current band has never done any transposing with the exception of trying to allow my frontman (baritone) to try and have an easier time keeping up with a Dio cover.

[ShoeManiac]

Originally Posted by behndy

something i run into is that i like atonal touches, like playing an open G with a C# fretted on the 11th of the D string, and that is a BITCH to move. stuff like that i kind of tell the singer "tough, figure it out". was wondering if most people try to keep that in mind and avoid situations like that?

That's just a case for knowing the fingerboard better. Is the G on the 10th fret of the A string going to sound the same as that open G? No. But if you know the fingerboard and work on your technique you can get the sound a lot closer than you may realize. And hammering onto that G from the open A while flourishing that C# could work really well.

Open strings can sound cool for some things, but this may be an instance where we as players need to stop thinking about convenience for ourselves as players. It's nice to be able to play some things like that, but what about the overall sound of the band and the song? Sometimes a small compromise on one instrumental part can help everything else come together.

[behndy]

of course the song comes first, and i try it out different ways before i settle on a riff or section. lulz, but sometimes i'm not good enough to play it in a different position.

say, for example, it's a moving double stop using an open string as a root to flesh out a chord? to me it'll never sound the same as a droning open string, but also a PAIN to play it transposed just enough to not be able to use an open string.

[ShoeManiac]

Have you tried a capo? If you really are that attached to an open drone a capo could be really handy.

The point is, we're playing stringed instruments that can play (pretty much) any note we want to. A singer doesn't have that kind of flexibility since their body is the instrument. With some vocal training a singer can expand their range and ability, but not every singer is doing that. So sometimes it falls upon the band members to adapt to the singer simply because the singer may have physical limitations.

Case in point: New Order playing "Love will tear us apart". That bass part is incredibly distinct in the original Joy Division version. And in the case of New Order, the band includes some of the guys from Joy Division, but a different singer. And you know what they did? They changed the key of "Love will tear us apart" to suit their singer.

[behndy]

for sure. i totally understand aiming for what a singer you're working with can do. mostly curious about how people approach dealing with that.

but nah. don't want to use a capo. i play a six stringer, so if i can't find how to make one of those 6 notes work if it needs an open string with vocals, lulz, then it goes instrumental or it gets scrapped.

thanks!

[bassybill]

Originally Posted by ShoeManiac

With some vocal training a singer can expand their range and ability, but not every singer is doing that. So sometimes it falls upon the band members to adapt to the singer simply because the singer may have physical limitations.

Even with training, a singer won't generally expand their natural range that much. That's why you won't turn a baritone vocalist into a great tenor. Training can make a huge difference to technique, but your range is something you're pretty much stuck with apart from some very modest changes. Pity, I always wanted to sing like Robert Plant and my natural range is nearer to Barry White.

[Coop Soup]

Originally Posted by bassybill

Yeah, this is a good point - it's more about writing for the singer's range. The singer won't really have "a key" as such because the best key for them will vary from song to song.

The bigger problem is wanting to do a three part harmony... I usually have to do the higher harmony.

[bassybill]

Originally Posted by Coop Soup

The bigger problem is wanting to do a three part harmony... I usually have to do the higher harmony.

In that case, it's about writing for your (multiple) singers' ranges.