You didn't write anything

[kai_ski]

Originally Posted by fdeck

I suggest a counter-offer: Band agrees that you are the author of the bass part. For $300 up front, you assign them the rights to the bass part.

Kills two birds with one stone. 1) It settles authorship. 2) You get your $300.

This is the only way I will deal with a "songwriter" that doesn't recognize a band-relationship. Payment up front, or I don't play (arrange) any bass lines. In one circumstance, "the band" had a songwriter sign a contract that if any of the demos we were recording were ever sold or distributed publicly we would each be paid for 8 hours of tracking at a specified rate.

On the other hand, does the OP's former bandmate have the songs copyrighted? What proof does he have that he wrote them in their entirety? What's to keep you from copywriting them before he does? I'm not saying that would be worthwhile, or particularly beneficial to you in the long run, but it does give you a piece to negotiate with. I'm sure you're energy could be put to better use moving forward...

Honestly, I'm surprised he is offering you anything. Singers/songwriters are the worst IME when it comes to money, and splitting it fairly.

[HolmeBass]

There used to be more credit for the copyright of your recorded part, called a phonocopyright. If you look at some older albums, especially live albums, you might notice a the letter "p" in a circle, just like the "c" in a circle that signifies copyright.

Used to be that in a recording each musician would have to explicitly waive their phonocopyright, now that has been relaxed so that if you were paid for the recording session, you automatically waive that right.

But that is only a right to that specific recording of your performance, so he can just have someone else re-record your bass part and you are out of luck. Also the concept of a phonocopyright may have been even further weakened since I heard about the changes above, which happened around 10 years ago.

[Stick_Player]

WHO financed "The Recording"?

If you were part of that, you can probably claim an equal share of the Copyright of the Sound Recording.

As far as the ownership of the composition (whole or part), "writing" a bass part won't qualify - unless it was previously agreed upon. It's about the lyrics and melody.

Chances are (99.999999999999999%) nothing will happen - as in generating any money. So don't lose any sleep over this.

[James Judson]

I am not a copyright lawyer. A copyright lawyer should chime in here as there are a lot of "opinions" here (most incorrect). I've been involved in a number of original bands lately and been studying copyright law. My understanding from the books I've been reading state it like this.

Only "MELODY" and "LYRICS" can be copyrighted. All chords, solos, bass lines, horn parts, rhythm, tempo, etc are simply arrangement parts and not copyrightable. A copyright exists the instant the song is composed and does not need to be registered. However if you do register a song it only gets filed away. If a dispute over copyright comes up it then gets pulled from the files to help settle the dispute.

Royalties get split between "COMPOSER" and "PRODUCER". Composer can be the whole band as defined by the contract and producer is the guy that put the recordings together. Most musicians overlook the producer and short themselves half of the royalties.

Most of this I found in "The Indie Musicians Bible", a book I checked out of the library.

I may have interpreted this poorly as copyright is complex and confusing. Congress probably did this on purpose to help protect the big record company profits as they are only "FOR BIG BUSINESS" no matter how many times they say "I'm for the little guy".

You should consult a lawyer if you really need copyright protection of any sort. And please share with us what your lawyer says.

YMMV

[Substandard]

I feel the need to stress that your issue has naught to do with copyright of the songs themselves and is strictly with the rights to the recordings.

If you were all present at the studio during the recording and played on it. Unless you were in a contractual session, it's entirely likely you own an equal share of the recordings and can act as such.

[Munjibunga]

Tommy Shannon got writing credits on SRV's "Crossfire" because the bass line pretty much defined the song's melody.

[Stick_Player]

Originally Posted by James Judson

... Only "MELODY" and "LYRICS" can be copyrighted. All chords, solos, bass lines, horn parts, rhythm, tempo, etc are simply arrangement parts and not copyrightable. A copyright exists the instant the song is composed and does not need to be registered. However if you do register a song it only gets filed away. If a dispute over copyright comes up it then gets pulled from the files to help settle the dispute.

Royalties get split between "COMPOSER" and "PRODUCER". Composer can be the whole band as defined by the contract and producer is the guy that put the recordings together. Most musicians overlook the producer and short themselves half of the royalties. ...

I think you mean: Royalties get split between "COMPOSER" and "PUBLISHER". 50/50 split. The composer(s) can also be the publisher or one of the publishers.

Example: Joe (lyrics) and Bud (melody) write a song and each own 50% of the whole. Joe and Bud sign on with Hitsong Publishing. Hitsong takes 50% of the whole. Fred (drums) and Biff (bass) get nothing even though they created the drums and bass parts (arrangement), because they did NOT demand, beforehand, some songwriting credits.

ASCAP collects $100 from radio play. Joe earns $25, Bud earns $25 and Hitsong earns $50. Biff and Fred earn $0. Harry Fox collects $100 from the record company due to sales. Joe earns $25, Bud earns $25 and Hitsong earns $50. Biff and Fred earn $0.

GENERALLY... There are "small performance" royalties - those collected (by BMI, ASCAP, SESAC) from radio, tv, muzak, etc. Then there are "mechanical license fees" paid by the record company, distributor, etc.

Small performance fees are set according to audience size and/or play-count. Big radio stations in large markets pay more than little stations out in Podunk. Major labels collect better than unknown indies.

Mechanical license fee amounts are Statutory (see link above)

ALL of these can be negotiated and renegotiated.

Many use Harry Fox Agency to collect Mechanical Royalties from record companies. HFA takes appx. 5% for their service. The remaining 95% is split according to the Songwriter/Publisher agreement.

ASCAP, BMI, SESAC also take a collection fee and send the remaining income per the Songwriter/Publisher agreement.

Collecting is very haphazard and greatly depends on your clout.

This is a GENERAL definition/explanation.

Record producer's fees can be negotiated in a number of different scenarios. These may be flat fees paid by the artist or record company. The producer may be paid a small fee and then additional income from an arrangement based on sales. A producer could also be involved in the song income as a 'writer' and/or publisher. Any way one can think of a scenario, it could become the deal.

GET EVERYTHING IN WRITING PRIOR TO CREATING MUSICAL NOTE ONE!!!

Joe and Bud retire as millionaire songwriters. Biff and Fred are working in a lounge band at the Holiday inn, playing covers of Joe and Bud's songs. Joe and Bud continue to earn royalties collected from the Holiday Inn by BMI.

[Roy Vogt]

Typically, writer's royalties are negotiated, performance is another matter entirely. I guess the question would be whether you and the other band member contributed to the actual writing of the song (chords/melodies/sections etc.) or whether you just added bass and drums to the guitarist/singer's ideas. Those would be arrangements.
Very often I and many other studio players contribute hooks, bass riffs, etc. to songs we are recording as work for hire arrangements. It's a base rate (Union Scale since I'm AFM) but points can be negotiated on a band project if you are a band member and since it's a Union Contract I will be paid again if the work is licensed for TV, Movies, Commercials, etc. Hope this helps. It actually seems like this was a failed Band and the leader is attempting to be generous-so there's something. He could also just offer to pay you for your work and that would be OK too.

[jmattbassplaya]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Here's how...if you write a song, you are coming up with it completely from scratch out of your own head. Once that song is written and presented to everyone else in the band, everyone else is adding onto an existing song, and that's usually considered "arranging" unless significant changes to the song itself occur. Those significant changes are usually judged on a case by case basis by the songwriter. Sometimes they result in full co-writing credit, sometimes a partial songwriting credit with partial royalties paid accordingly, and sometimes they're judged to be arrangement, resulting in no songwriting royalties.

Okay, so what happens when songs come out of jams in your band?

Literally, almost every song my band has created started from us jamming. Someone will play a lick or line, and then we'd jam on it until it's solid. We'll then arrange additional parts, and then words and a melody will come after everything else is already in place.

In this case, there is no writer. No one truly creates anything pre existing before a jam, so no one can claim anything is theirs more than anyone else. We'll each contribute progression ideas and help with parts outside of our own (including lyrical and melody content).

In these cases, who's the songwriter or is it simply everyone?

[Crazyeelboy]

Best approach in a band is to agree the song credits ahead of time and put it into writing.

[bigboy_78]

Originally Posted by Stick_Player

I think you mean: Royalties get split between "COMPOSER" and "PUBLISHER". 50/50 split. The composer(s) can also be the publisher or one of the publishers.

Example: Joe (lyrics) and Bud (melody) write a song and each own 50% of the whole. Joe and Bud sign on with Hitsong Publishing. Hitsong takes 50% of the whole. Fred (drums) and Biff (bass) get nothing even though they created the drums and bass parts (arrangement), because they did NOT demand, beforehand, some songwriting credits.

ASCAP collects $100 from radio play. Joe earns $25, Bud earns $25 and Hitsong earns $50. Biff and Fred earn $0. Harry Fox collects $100 from the record company due to sales. Joe earns $25, Bud earns $25 and Hitsong earns $50. Biff and Fred earn $0.

GENERALLY... There are "small performance" royalties - those collected (by BMI, ASCAP, SESAC) from radio, tv, muzak, etc. Then there are "mechanical license fees" paid by the record company, distributor, etc.

Small performance fees are set according to audience size and/or play-count. Big radio stations in large markets pay more than little stations out in Podunk. Major labels collect better than unknown indies.

Mechanical license fee amounts are Statutory (see link above)

ALL of these can be negotiated and renegotiated.

Many use Harry Fox Agency to collect Mechanical Royalties from record companies. HFA takes appx. 5% for their service. The remaining 95% is split according to the Songwriter/Publisher agreement.

ASCAP, BMI, SESAC also take a collection fee and send the remaining income per the Songwriter/Publisher agreement.

Collecting is very haphazard and greatly depends on your clout.

This is a GENERAL definition/explanation.

Record producer's fees can be negotiated in a number of different scenarios. These may be flat fees paid by the artist or record company. The producer may be paid a small fee and then additional income from an arrangement based on sales. A producer could also be involved in the song income as a 'writer' and/or publisher. Any way one can think of a scenario, it could become the deal.

GET EVERYTHING IN WRITING PRIOR TO CREATING MUSICAL NOTE ONE!!!

Joe and Bud retire as millionaire songwriters. Biff and Fred are working in a lounge band at the Holiday inn, playing covers of Joe and Bud's songs. Joe and Bud continue to earn royalties collected from the Holiday Inn by BMI.

Long story short, go into publishing, songwriting is for chumps.

[Stick_Player]

Originally Posted by bigboy_78

Long story short, go into publishing, songwriting is for chumps.

This is why Michael Jackson purchased the PUBLISHING portion of the Lennon/McCartney songs.

He knew that his income would be equal to BOTH Lennon and McCartney.

John - 25%
Paul - 25%
Michael - 50%

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by jmattbassplaya

Okay, so what happens when songs come out of jams in your band?

If it comes spontaneously out of a jam, certainly you can make a case for everyone being a co-writer.

[jmattbassplaya]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

If it comes spontaneously out of a jam, certainly you can make a case for everyone being a co-writer.

Cool.

[Bass_Pounder]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

If it comes spontaneously out of a jam, certainly you can make a case for everyone being a co-writer.

Originally Posted by jmattbassplaya

Cool.

It still depends though...............

If you were just coming up with bass lines to go with what was being played in the "jam", then your still technically out of luck.

Unless you came up with a part, or write a bassline that becomes an integral part of the song - no credit.

It kind of comes down to this:

Either you have to have had the idea for parts of the song that the others had to play, or you have to write a bass part that defines the overall sound of the song.

[Music Attorney]

Originally Posted by Downunderwonder

Paging Music Attorney.

For those interested, I've posted regarding bass lines and whether they entitle the bassist to a piece of the song.

I've also posted regarding ownership of compositions and/or recordings when there is no written agreement. Check out my posts under "joint authors."

If anyone has any questions about my posts, then I'm happy to chime in. Otherwise, we've been down this road before.

Hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving.

MA

[Music Attorney]

Originally Posted by uOpt

Well writing credit or not, they (I guess he) cannot without any agreement just use the bass you played on the recordings and publish it. Unless you signed something that gives them/him the right without compensation.

Partially correct.

If the band members qualify as joint authors, and there are no written agreements to the contrary, then each of the authors has a non-exclusive right to exploit the recordings provided they account to the other joint authors in equal shares.

And I'm only talking about the rights in the recordings. There are separate issues related to the use of name/likenesses in connection with the exploitation of the recordings as well as the use of the musical compositions embodied in the recordings.

MA

[Music Attorney]

Originally Posted by Substandard

Seeking legal advice on the Internet is the best idea.

What are you trying to say? ;-)

Originally Posted by Substandard

Your laws will vary from state to state for this instance. In washington, unless a contract is negotiated, all parties involved have an equal stake in the recordings themselves. What the credits come back to is the rights to the songs themselves.

It's likely you have similar laws. IANAL though.

Copyright law is really controlled by the Feds. That is, a State can't pass a law that conflicts with the Copyright Act. Whereas contract law is very state driven. Therefore, a state couldn't change the substantive nature of Federal copyright law, but they might be able to define certain contractual or business issues when it comes to handling the substantive portion of the applicable Federal law.

Your notion of "equal stake" is really more properly referred to as joint authorship, but that's a function of Federal law and not state law.

MA

[Music Attorney]

Originally Posted by HolmeBass

Used to be that in a recording each musician would have to explicitly waive their phonocopyright, now that has been relaxed so that if you were paid for the recording session, you automatically waive that right.

Not true. The only way anyone transfers their copyright in a recording is via a written document. It cannot be transferred orally or just because someone pays for something. For example, if someone financed the recording of an album based on a "handshake" and then the relationship fell apart, the financier might have some breach of contract claim against the band, but in no way does paying for the recordings give the financier any rights to the performances, songs, vocals, or other intellectual property embodied in the recordings.

For example, if a union session musician does a union session pursuant to the collective bargaining agreement ("CBA") between the AFM and the labels, then the CBA specifically sets out the sessions are being done on a work made for hire basis. That is, nothing needs to be signed because the parties (i.e., the labels and the Union on behalf of its members) have agreed upfront in writing that this is the case.

However, if a union session musician does a non-union session, then none of what I said applies because the CBA wouldn't be applicable in that instance. The person hiring the session musician would need the session player to transfer his rights via a written agreement.

MA

[Music Attorney]

Originally Posted by James Judson

I am not a copyright lawyer. A copyright lawyer should chime in here as there are a lot of "opinions" here (most incorrect). I've been involved in a number of original bands lately and been studying copyright law. My understanding from the books I've been reading state it like this.

Only "MELODY" and "LYRICS" can be copyrighted. All chords, solos, bass lines, horn parts, rhythm, tempo, etc are simply arrangement parts and not copyrightable. A copyright exists the instant the song is composed and does not need to be registered. However if you do register a song it only gets filed away. If a dispute over copyright comes up it then gets pulled from the files to help settle the dispute.

Royalties get split between "COMPOSER" and "PRODUCER". Composer can be the whole band as defined by the contract and producer is the guy that put the recordings together. Most musicians overlook the producer and short themselves half of the royalties.

Most of this I found in "The Indie Musicians Bible", a book I checked out of the library.

I may have interpreted this poorly as copyright is complex and confusing. Congress probably did this on purpose to help protect the big record company profits as they are only "FOR BIG BUSINESS" no matter how many times they say "I'm for the little guy".

You should consult a lawyer if you really need copyright protection of any sort. And please share with us what your lawyer says.

YMMV

Royalties for writing a song are completely different than royalties for producing the recording of a song.

MA