Your opinion on "that" Patti Smith song...

Din Of Win · #1 08-30-2011, 07:33 AM

Hey gang,

I'm in a weird spot:

I have a band wanting me to be their bassist. I really like all their original material. However, they do ONE cover... and that cover is the infamous Patti Smith song, "Rock and Roll N*****".

Now, i understand wanting to challenge the audience and whatnot... but man... THAT song?!

I may be hypersensitive. I grew up in a VERY P.C. environment. But, that is being coupled with the fact that i majored in Linguistics. So, i'm ultra ULTRA sensitive to the power of words.

Long story short... i'm nervous and uneasy about playing this one song because of the use of a tremendously historically hate-filled word, and i was wondering what the general opinion playing the song is, here on TB.

Thanks!

Jim Nazium · #2 08-30-2011, 07:41 AM

I never heard of that song, so I don't know what the lyrics are, but unless there is a really positive message behind it, I would be very uncomfortable playing a song with the N-word in the title.

KenHR · #3 08-30-2011, 08:08 AM

It's a pretty abrasive cover to choose, and depending on your audience, they might not get what the tune's about.

The song is about subverting the use of "that" word, and is a pretty powerful statement. But I don't know that I'd ever choose it for my setlist.

(and woohoo...anthropological linguistics minor here!)

THand · #4 08-30-2011, 08:18 AM

Get 'em to play "F*** the FCC" instead

dmusic148 · #5 08-30-2011, 08:27 AM

Substitute the word 'digger.' Might be a bit awkward during the verse where the band shouts it 7 times in a row, but, better that than that 'other' word. No way in hell I would agree to that, context be damned. It will definitely piss someone off. Which of course was Patti's intent.

Tampabass · #6 08-30-2011, 08:28 AM

I wouldn't do it: WAY too many downsides and, believe me, the audience isn't going to get that it's "subverting" the use of an awfully offensive word.

ForSix · #7 08-30-2011, 08:29 AM

Get a black front man, and you won't have any problems.

Smokin' Toaster · #8 08-30-2011, 08:29 AM

When many people hear that word, they stop thinking rationally and begin to react. You have to look no farther than an airing of “Blazing Saddles” on broadcast or cable TV. I tried to watch it recently and gave up because the censoring of the “n-word” rendered it pointless. Someone who had never seen the original movie would be completely unable to understand the premise unless they could read lips. And the saddest part of that? The movie, while it is a comedy, conveys a powerful message of the error of holding stereotypes. Especially racial stereotypes. But not conveying this message is a sacrifice made at the altar of political correctness. You cannot even utter a word that sounds like it; if you doubt this, Google the word “niggardly” Controversies about the word "niggardly" - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
which has nothing to do with ethnic slurs, but means miserly or “tight with a buck”. One fellow in Washington properly used it and it created a complete firestorm - and he resigned. It didn't matter that it was a perfectly acceptable word and he used it correctly with no intention to offend anyone... it sounded like the n-word so he needed to be shown the wrath of political correctness. Taken to the point of absurdity.

People should get a grip. It’s a word. I don't use it, but it's JUST A WORD. Sticks and stones may break my bones… you know the rest.

Having said that, there are people out there who may stone your band to death or at least tar and feather you for playing a song containing this word. And many will congratulate them and extol their “righteousness” for doing so. Kinda reminds me of this:
monty python stoning clip - YouTube

dmusic148 · #9 08-30-2011, 08:35 AM

David Howard was an IDIOT for saying that; correct word or not, he really should have realized someone wouldn't like it. That was just plain stupid.

Jools4001 · #10 08-30-2011, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tampabass

I wouldn't do it: WAY too many downsides and, believe me, the audience isn't going to get that it's "subverting" the use of an awfully offensive word.

+1

You have to put an awful lot of faith in the intelligence of the audience to 'get it', and as we all know, the collective intelligence of an audience can be pretty random.

Smokin' Toaster · #11 08-30-2011, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jools4001

+1

You have to put an awful lot of faith in the intelligence of the audience to 'get it', and as we all know, the collective intelligence of ~~an audience~~ the masses can be pretty ~~random~~ disappointing.

I fixed that for you.

Marko5657 · #12 08-30-2011, 09:23 AM

I agree that it’s unwise to do that song.

Do you think it would cause a problem if you said you wouldn’t go on stage with them if they did it?

Ripley · #13 08-30-2011, 09:24 AM

I played in an 80's band last year; mostly small bars in predominantly white small towns. Oddly enough, we'd get dirty looks from people when we played "Take the Skinheads Bowling".

Never overestimate the ability of your audience to detect nuance and satire.

teleharmonium · #14 08-30-2011, 09:36 AM

There are lots of songs that do the same basic thing with that word. "Woman Is the N* of the World" by Yoko Ono - surely an influence on Patti Smith - and an old reggae tune called "Every N* Is a Star" come to mind.

It's pretty aggressive on a superficial level at least, for a white male performer to use that word. Intent aside. (And for the record, I believe that double standard makes perfect sense and is in no way unfair.)

However, I have played on two different original songs by two different guys that did exactly that, in both cases with racially diverse audiences. I still play with one of them. No one has ever even brought it up yet, and it's not like the word is mumbled or buried in a lengthy line of a song (not that an actual confrontation is the only measure of tension or reaction).

You may not be giving the audience enough credit. Performers tend to err on the side of low expectations for the audience, in my experience, whether for something like this, or in some other way for what they think the audience can handle or will like musically. I think if your intent is to repurpose the word in an ultimately positive way, most people will pick up on that.

That said, there is a real risk of offense, and who's to say that the word itself doesn't very reasonably provoke strong negative feelings ? If you're going to roll those dice, you need to be prepared for the possibilities. If that's not for you, I don't think there's anything wrong with vetoing the song, or leaving the band. You don't want to be feeling that it is wrong to do it and doing it anyway.

Marko5657 · #15 08-30-2011, 09:40 AM

Someone told me they used to do some oldie, maybe an old country tune that included the words “knickers to their knees”. I’m not familiar with the song.

They were rehearsing in the club and two black custodian guys came up and said something to the effect “Ya know, we don’t know what kinda music you play, but do you really have to play this while we’re here?"

I don’t remember how it went from there, but I guess they figured out what happened and it was cool, but that’s just how easily misunderstanding can happen.

EddiePlaysBass · #16 08-30-2011, 10:23 AM

Lucky for you, you're the bass player so no one will recognize you once you get off stage and stop holding your instrument

**barebones** · #17 08-30-2011, 10:23 AM

I wasn't familiar with the song so I checked out Patti's original and this other version by Marilyn Manson.

Patti Smith " Rock n' Roll ******" - YouTube

marilyn manson - Rock 'N' Roll ****** - Smells Like Children - YouTube

I don't think it could be said that either of these artists are racists, and it seems the intent of the song is actually to throw that word back in the faces of real racists and to establish a sort of camaraderie with the downtrodden in society. In that sense, I think it's a powerful song.

On the other hand, I'm extremely uncomfortable with that word, and I don't think I could perform it, even though I've played in some bands with some pretty offensive lyrics. That's just me. I'm not really into stirring things up in this way.

If you do it, be prepared for some possible hostile reactions, as I'm sure Patti must have dealt with. Although I think a lot of people in your audience will "get it," a lot of people will hear only the offending word, not the overall message. You may have to explain both the message of the song, as well as your own reasons as to why you feel the song should be performed by your band. What are you trying to say? Why do you think the message matters?

On that note, I do wonder if the song is still relevant and effective today. Words and their meanings morph all the time, and a message that made sense decades ago may not carry over now. The song does make one think about what happens when an artist turns a pejorative on its head, perhaps attempting to turn it into a positive rather than a negative. Some people think this approach can take the sting out of a word, thereby empowering those forced to endure all kinds of prejudices. We've all heard rap artists use this word, and I have played with gays and lesbians who attempted to do the same thing with the slurs directed toward them. I played with one woman who used the "C" word over and over in her material as well. I do always wonder, though, if these artists' intent actually produces the desired outcome, or if it just reinforces stereotypes.

I'm glad you're putting some thought into this subject rather than plowing blindly into some pretty controversial material. You sound like a considerate and empathetic person. Good luck.

EddiePlaysBass · #18 08-30-2011, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barebones

On that note, I do wonder if the song is still relevant and effective today. Words and their meanings morph all the time, and a message that made sense decades ago may not carry over now.

Amen! In my native tongue (Belgian Dutch), it used to be insulting to call a black man "black". You had to call him a "negro". Now, if you use the word "negro", people get uncomfortable and ask to refer to said people as "black". Which, for more reason than one, still does not make any sense to me.

silky smoove · #19 08-30-2011, 10:40 AM

A question that I would ask: How has that song been received by audiences at past shows?

If the answer is negative, I would say that I would join as long as that cover is dropped.
If the answer is positive, I would say that I would join as long as that cover is dropped.

jlane72t · #20 08-30-2011, 10:46 AM

There is absolutely no upside to a local-level band covering that song, except to help yourselves feel "edgy" while you're rehearsing it...before the first time you present it in public and get an (at best) uncomfortable reaction.

You may think it's a great and/or important song but....well, keep in mind that it's a very obscure song as far as general audiences go. They're not going to know the words or intent beforehand, "hearing" it for the first time, with live-gig sound quality and annunciation...meaning what their brain will absorb will be "bla bla bla N**GER bla bla".