Does arco jazz suck?

Jeff Guevin · #1 08-09-2006, 02:01 PM

First, please understand that I fully appreciate the challenges of playing with a bow, and let what I'm about to say NOT be taken as an indictment of any of the players I will mention. I have the greatest respect for these guys, and some are my musical heroes. Also, I love the sound of arco bass in a classical setting, so I don't think it's the properties of the instrument getting in the way of my enjoyment.

But to me, pretty much every arco solo in jazz, especially over a swing feel, sounds scratchy / cheesy / out of tune / square / comical, or some combination of those things. I've been reading these boards for leads on arco playing that I'll like, but I really haven't found it. I have found some great players that I wouldn't otherwise have listened to, though!

So: Lynn Seaton and John Goldsby get props for their arco. Just sounds bad to me. I can only assume they're doing way better than I will ever do with the bow, but as a listener, I'm just turned off by it. Here I'm thinking of the samples Seaton has on his site, and Goldsby's work on "Tale of the Fingers" (really good bass album, though!).

I don't know if Christian McBride's arco is considered good, but I dislike what I've heard (on Joe Henderson's "Lush Life" and McBride's solo work) even more than the previous two.

On slow passages, ballads, etc., I've heard John Goldsby and Marc Johnson sound beautiful. But where's the ripping up-tempo solo that compares with what we take for granted with other instruments?

On the positive side, Red Mitchell on "Hear Ye!" with Harold Land sounds better to me. And what I've heard of Slam Stewart sounded pretty good! But recording quality makes it hard for me to judge, and he's not playing in the modern-swing style I most enjoy.

In case it's not clear, I want to be wrong! Hit me with those great recordings that I've missed, or maybe explain why I should like the recordings I've mentioned above.

Thanks!

-Jeff "Hard-to-Please" Guevin

musicman5string · #2 08-09-2006, 07:34 PM

You need to hear Michael Moore.

Or Eddie Gomez.

Your tune will change.

Bruce Lindfield · #3 08-10-2006, 02:35 AM

I think it's very much the case, that you don't have to like everything !

You can appreciate the effort and skill used etc. etc. - but you still might not like something - I think that's how I feel - for some reason I just don't like arco solos in Jazz - OK a tasteful bit of bowing in a ballad as a supportive thing can sound very nice - but solos just don't sound right to my ears - - somehow archaic and jarring....

But that's just my personal taste - we are allowed to have personal likes and dislikes you know?

Jake · #4 08-10-2006, 04:46 AM

An awesome cut of arco Jazz bass Michael Moore's solo on "It's the Nights I Like" off of the first Michael Moore/Rufus Reid duo album.

pierre · #5 08-10-2006, 04:52 AM

Same feeling.
But there must be good recordings with bowing jazz solo. Always in research. May some guys help us.

PB+J · #6 08-10-2006, 05:32 AM

Well truthfully there aren't that many jazz players using bows anywhere. Sure, grapelli, stuff smith, jon-luc ponty, I guess in the past, regina carter in the present, but violin never really established much of a foothold in jazz, whch is odd, because it's such an expressive instrument. "Jazz cello" is even more rare. Sure, it exists, but it's never been very widesrpead or common. So my point is there's not much of a "voice" for bowed instruments in jazz generally. It's a little puzzlig, actually.

Greg Clinkingbeard · #7 08-10-2006, 07:10 AM

Take two "Bass on Top" listens (Mr P.C.) and call me in the morning.

tappingtrance · #8 08-10-2006, 07:13 AM

listen to the marx bros and prepare to have your mind blown

Jeff Guevin · #9 08-10-2006, 08:08 AM

Thanks for the suggestions, everyone! I will check out Michael Moore, whom I've actually never listened to (knowingly) and the PC cut. Eddie I'm surprised about, because of his "electric-y" pizz sound and his occasionally painful intonation (to be fair, on 30-year-old albums), but I'll give it a shot--can you recommend a recording?

I note that no one has stepped in to defend the specific artists I've named, though I know I've heard these same bassists lauded for their arco playing. Can anyone who likes them please add their perspective?

I just remembered that John Goldsby drops by TBDB, so I re-read my original post, and I want to say that I don't find Mr. Goldsby's or Mr. Seaton's arco soloing comical or cheesy or out of tune or square--those adjectives are aimed more at the general cloud of "pretty good" bass players trying their hand at the bow. I still don't find the arco soloing by the aforementioned giants satisfying, and there's often some level of "scratchiness", but I thought I should make that distinction clearer.

I had another thought--I personally don't enjoy jazz violin a whole lot, either. Here it's not because of scratchiness or intonation, but rather because to me the articulation always sounds, I guess, "stilted", as though the bow and swung eighths are destined to sound a little like a hoedown. If there's something to that, and violinists could be said to have a challenge getting a "proper" jazz articulation, then I imagine the bass would have this problem, magnified. How depressing.

I'll have to think a while before deciding whether the Marx Brothers suggestion is for real--Harpo played harp, and Groucho played bass? Who knew?

Bruce Lindfield · #10 08-10-2006, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PB+J

Well truthfully there aren't that many jazz players using bows anywhere. Sure, grapelli, stuff smith, jon-luc ponty, I guess in the past, regina carter in the present, but violin never really established much of a foothold in jazz, whch is odd, because it's such an expressive instrument. "Jazz cello" is even more rare. Sure, it exists, but it's never been very widesrpead or common. So my point is there's not much of a "voice" for bowed instruments in jazz generally. It's a little puzzlig, actually.

I tend to agree, but to my ears it just doesn't sound "right" in Jazz. I don't like Grapelli - just sounds sort of "twee" to my ears - not exactly the right word - but I can't think of a better one....?

The fusion violinists sound to me as if they could just as well be playing electric guitar - but the scraping sound and overall envelope of the bowed sound doesn't seem to fit with Jazz in the way that Trumpet and Sax do!

Bruce Lindfield · #11 08-10-2006, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jguevin

I had another thought--I personally don't enjoy jazz violin a whole lot, either. Here it's not because of scratchiness or intonation, but rather because to me the articulation always sounds, I guess, "stilted", as though the bow and swung eighths are destined to sound a little like a hoedown. If there's something to that, and violinists could be said to have a challenge getting a "proper" jazz articulation, then I imagine the bass would have this problem, magnified. How depressing.

We were writing at the same time and this is just about what I was thinking - but I don't see it as depressing, I see it as a good excuse not to spend too much time on practicing with a bow!!

Jeff Guevin · #12 08-10-2006, 09:03 AM

Neat, a new word:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twee

PB+J · #13 08-10-2006, 09:13 AM

"twee" is a brit thing....

Grapelli always plays the same solo--he's like a bluegrasser that way. Or maybe it just seems that way because Django was so incredible

Regina Carter is pretty cool, but still there's something about the tone of violin in jazz that just ain't right

**Damon Rondeau** · #14 08-10-2006, 09:15 AM

I'd like to hear any one of you play "Lady Be Good" and swing as hard as Grapelli. Don't wanna go back to the 40's? Swing like Ray Parker on "My Heart Belongs To Daddy". Then get back to us.

There have been a lot of tired-ass horn players and bass players who always play the same solo, "like a bluegrasser". No musical instrument necessarily leads to bad artistry.

I know y'all are couching your commentary along the lines of "like" and "don't like" -- which is proper -- but when you start using words like "suck" and "twee" I say it's time to sally forth in defense. Can't let that stand unchallenged.

I think one of the reasons you don't hear much arco -- let alone excellent arco -- in jazz is because it's damned difficult. To have complete fluidity with the bow in real improvisatory time is a very rare thing.

Violin and jazz go way back. It's one thing to say "I don't like it", but to say something like "it ain't right" -- well, then we're getting a view of your prejudicial underclothing. Jazz is "supposed" to be a certain thing, containing horns and double basses, right? What would you say to somebody like a Joe Venuti -- older than all our grandfathers, dead or alive -- who was there, who was influential, and who was making everybody laugh looong before there ever was a Coltrane or a Bird?

What about banjo and jazz? It was there at the beginning and for a very long time. Not right?

PB+J · #15 08-10-2006, 09:17 AM

Well I still don't like grapelli, but it's not a question of skill level. Regina Carter can play, it's just a question of not soudning right--to me. I don't know why this is. I'd lay it all on my own shortcomings, but then there's the fact that the history of jazz shows suprisingly little room for bowed instruments in general

Bruce Lindfield · #16 08-10-2006, 09:20 AM

As I said - I can appreciate the difficulty and skill that goes into it - I just don't like the results!!

For me - I love listening to bowed solos in say a great concerto - Elgar's Cello Concerto for example - wondeful sonorities - and that's what it's meant for, to my ears?

Not Jazz!

Jeff Guevin · #17 08-10-2006, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damon Rondeau

I'd like to hear any one of you play "Lady Be Good" and swing as hard as Grapelli. Don't wanna go back to the 40's? Swing like Ray Parker on "My Heart Belongs To Daddy". Then get back to us.

I know y'all are couching your commentary along the lines of "like" and "don't like" -- which is proper -- but when you start using words like "suck" and "twee" I say it's time to sally forth in defense. Can't let that stand unchallenged.

I think one of the reasons you don't hear much arco -- let alone excellent arco -- in jazz is because it's damned difficult. To have complete fluidity with the bow in real improvisatory time is a very rare thing.

Violin and jazz go way back. It's one thing to say "I don't like it", but to say something like "it ain't right" -- well, then we're getting a view of your prejudicial underclothing. Jazz is "supposed" to be a certain thing, containing horns and double basses. What would you say to somebody like a Joe Venuti -- older than all our grandfathers, dead or alive -- who was there, who was influential, and who was making everybody laugh looong before there ever was a Coltrane or a Bird.

What about banjo and jazz? It was there at the beginning and for a very long time. Not right?

Challenging a bunch of (mostly amateur or semi-pro) bassists to outswing one of the (if not THE) most famous jazz violinists or an accomplished professional bass player is not an appropriate response to discussion about the merits of arco bass playing. Yeah, Grapelli sounds stilted to me. Can I swing like him? Hell no, and asking if someone can is missing the point. As listeners, not players, some of us find something lacking in arco bass solos. If this were a board over at Jazztimes, would you make the same challenge?

Yeah, it's hard to sound good with the bow. I don't. That's why I don't play it in public. This thread is about whether even the very best have used the bow to make something that we enjoy listening to.

I'll come back to the topic of violin and other instruments and my "prejudicial underclothing" later, but it's a digression I didn't really want to make a thing.

**Damon Rondeau** · #18 08-10-2006, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PB+J

Well I still don't like grapelli, but it's not a question of skill level. Regina Carter can play, it's just a question of not soudning right--to me. I don't know why this is. I'd lay it all on my own shortcomings, but then there's the fact that the history of jazz shows suprisingly little room for bowed instruments in general

It also shows "surprisingly little room" for -- oh, I dunno -- male singers, let's say. Does this mean Tony Bennett sucks, is some sort of jazz freak? (To those who say he ain't jazz I say "bite me".)

I never thought those early synthesizers sounded any damn good playing any sort of jazz, fusion or otherwise. Does this mean Chick Corea sucks?

What you guys are talking about is your own taste, which is perfectly cool and groovy. Stretching it to something like "here are natural jazz instruments and here are instruments which don't cut it in jazz" is going to keep me posting.

Jeff Guevin · #19 08-10-2006, 09:36 AM

Damon, please note that no one says "John Goldsby sucks" or anything like it. The thread title is obviously meant as a provocative lead to what should be an interesting discussion about how far arco bass can be taken. Please don't hijack this into another "you must respect great players" thread.

PB+J · #20 08-10-2006, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damon Rondeau

What you guys are talking about is your own taste, which is perfectly cool and groovy. Stretching it to something like "here are natural jazz instruments and here are instruments which don't cut it in jazz" is going to keep me posting.

Post all you want--where did I ever say anything other than this is my opinion? you keep saying it's "cool" for other people to post their opinions, then when they do you come on like this? Huh?