Famous Jazz Players and Intonation

[damonsmith]

I see a lot of criticism of great player's intonation most recently in the Ron Carter and Buster Williams thread.
In my personal experience If I have done a ton of pizz only gigs I have to do a lot of "damage control" practice with the bow at home. Anymore I just play how I want which means plenty of arco AND practice.
Still, the fact is pizzicato only playing is often bad for your intonation - these guys have heavy schedules and I am sure practice time can be hard to come by. Couple that with varying sound systems and acoustic situations and you have recipe for it to slide over the years.

I follow the Gary Peacock model: If I "hear" a hard, angular line in a difficult register in the moment - I go for it. I feel better missing a note or two than playing it safe. You hear situations like this in all the great players that is no big deal to me.
In most cases guys who you don't hear any criticism of such as Ray Brown, Dave Holland and Red Mitchell it is well known that they practiced with the bow all the time.

I think it is a good lesson for all of us, especiallly for those of us for whom intonation is not a strong point. For me it is daily struggle that does improve with time as long as I am putting the work in - letting it slip can shoot me back to square one in a hurry.

[musicman5string]

Well said and good point.

[Jeff Guevin]

Yeah, well said. I'm critical of RC for this reason, but I never hesitate to give him props for what he does so well. Also, my intonation is ass.

Didn't know that about Dave Holland. He doesn't pull the bow out for performance much, does he?

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Guess I'm the odd man out. I still think that if you hear in tune, you can play in tune with or without a bow. YMMV.

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

Guess I'm the odd man out. I still think that if you hear in tune, you can play in tune with or without a bow. YMMV.

-Obviously some are better at it than others. I think it is possible play Pizzicatto in tune, for most people it takes additional practice with the bow, which it sounds like from earlier threads you have done.
Still, being able to hear an isolated pitch only gets you so far. Nailing the center of a pitch and sliding around until you hit it are two different things..
Ears + Postions + Practice is the most reliable formula anyone has come up with.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by damonsmith

-Obviously some are better at it than others. I think it is possible play Pizzicatto in tune, for most people it takes additional practice with the bow, which it sounds like from earlier threads you have done.

Nope - don't even own one. I've screwed around on a borrowed one a bit, but nothing regular.

Still, being able to hear an isolated pitch only gets you so far. Nailing the center of a pitch and sliding around until you hit it are two different things..
Ears + Postions + Practice is the most reliable formula anyone has come up with.

Agreed so far, but I still don't see why this can't all be done with the fingers. I went through Simandl and a goodly portion of Petracchi (sp?) and Rabbath book I without the bow. Someday, I'll practice with one. In the meantime, I still believe that if I plan to perform all pizz, it makes more sense to practice that way.

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

Nope - don't even own one. I've screwed around on a borrowed one a bit, but nothing regular.



Agreed so far, but I still don't see why this can't all be done with the fingers. I went through Simandl and a goodly portion of Petracchi (sp?) and Rabbath book I without the bow. Someday, I'll practice with one. In the meantime, I still believe that if I plan to perform all pizz, it makes more sense to practice that way.

You may just surprised at what you find when you get one. Ray Brown certainly disagreed with your assesment.
I would not go so far as to say your method will not work at all but it is certainly slower.
I am sure your experience as a pianist, which most of us do not have, helps you to hear exact harmonies more accurately.
I have enjoyed the lack of strength and nasty bloodblisters that can come from ONLY practicing arco and not pizz, so I add some Pizz to my practicing nowadays.
Anyway, I highly doubt Carter and WIlliams' problems are the inabilty to hear in tune.

[Jeff Guevin]

Originally Posted by damonsmith

You may just surprised at what you find when you get one. Anyway, I highly doubt Carter and WIlliams' problems are the inabilty to hear in tune.

Yeah, I think the point is that when you use a bow, you find out that you're not as in tune as you thought you were. However, Chris, if this is a "rule", you may really be an exception--your playing is of course in the pocket in many ways.

FWIW, I never thought Ron was out of tune on older (microphone-recorded) albums, such as with Miles, but on his solo stuff you can hear some pretty atrociously off-pitch notes, which he doesn't fix. Perhaps the less muddy tone he gets with his pickup exposes the problem the same way playing with a bow does? Another example is Christian McBride, who obviously has tons of technique, but has some intonation issues with the bow. Hell, playing in tune on the bass is hard, and the bow really does make it obvious when you're not right on. Gary Karr's got serious issues on his Bel Canto recording (takes the Bel right out of the Canto), and obviously the pizz/arco thing isn't an explanation there.

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

Agreed so far, but I still don't see why this can't all be done with the fingers.

- It is because of the overtone series, the fundamental is only alone in the very first vibration of the string after that it gets clouded with overtones and many of the higher ones as we know are untempered.
The bow draws out that first vibration allowing us to hear the fundamental.
For you, the experience a pianist may help you hear the fundamental more clearly than the rest of us.

[Ed Fuqua]

Apparently the problem is that you aren't hearing in tune. Since Karr is both playing arco and positionally it is (apparently) impossible for him to be out of tune.

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

Apparently the problem is that you aren't hearing in tune. Since Karr is both playing arco and positionally it is (apparently) impossible for him to be out of tune.

- Or that we are just better able to hear what he is actually doing.
I don't think any one thing, a good ear, practicing arco or good positions is going to save you.
Even with all three it is not going to be there sometimes, but your chances are better than counting on just one.

[Jeff Guevin]

I think there was a certain level of facetiousness in Ed's reply.

[Ed Fuqua]

Some snide and sarcasm as well....

[damonsmith]

And that is different from the usual in what way?

[Ed Fuqua]

The glaring lack of experential and informative commentary.
Chuh.

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

The glaring lack of experential and informative commentary.
Chuh.

- Right, I have seen you post that too. Let's have some.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by damonsmith

- It is because of the overtone series, the fundamental is only alone in the very first vibration of the string after that it gets clouded with overtones and many of the higher ones as we know are untempered.
The bow draws out that first vibration allowing us to hear the fundamental.
For you, the experience a pianist may help you hear the fundamental more clearly than the rest of us.

I certainly don't mean to hold myself up as the poster child for great intonation, much less the poster child for great intonation without a bow. My experience as a pianist may have helped in the harmonic sense, but I don't know if it helps me intonate or not. I simply believe that to play in tune, you have to hear in tune (internal singing), then play with a sound that speaks quickly. For pizz players, this has a lot to do with choice of RH technique, and, of course, strings.

I can easily think of four players here at TB who have far better intonation than I do. Two of them - Kurt Muroki (sp?) and John Goldsby - I KNOW use a bow regularly, and the other two that come immediately to mind (I'm sure there are many more) I've never heard make an arco sound - Marco Panascia, and Brian Bromberg. Marco will probably chime in, and I suspect he probably does use a bow regularly. About Brian, I'm not sure. But Marco and Brian play wonderfully in tune with their fingers on their recordings, and I don't think either is hiding anything by playing pizz...I think their intonation is just pretty much dead on. I only mention this because in real life I know arco players with pretty sketchy intonation, and pizz only players with impeccable intonation...and I think their results are more of an indication of their inner ears and how much they shed rather than whether or not they practice with the stick o' pain.

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

I certainly don't mean to hold myself up as the poster child for great intonation, much less the poster child for great intonation without a bow.

-Then why take the slow road? 20min of even scales with the bow a day would make a huge differenece you could feel. you can get a cheap wood bow from ebay for $40 and more than adequate CF bow for $100.

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

Marco Panascia, and Brian Bromberg. Marco will probably chime in, and I suspect he probably does use a bow regularly.

- On the mp3 he posted in the Mehldau thread he uses the bow toward the end and sounds awesome, but come on, the dude is Italian. Besides, shedding with it and using it in your music are two different things.

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

I simply believe that to play in tune, you have to hear in tune (internal singing), then play with a sound that speaks quickly. For pizz players, this has a lot to do with choice of RH technique, and, of course, strings.

Sounds like part of the equasion for sure. Personally, I need that PLUS practice with the bow.

I would like to confess a moment of schadenfreude which revealed some feet of, if not clay, at least an badly trimmed toenail. I've been collecting Niels-Henning-Orsted Pederson CDs for some time, and would like to report finally hearing an out of tune note (just one) on "Duo 2" with Kenny Drew, a wonderful recording despite this one iffy note on "A Child Is Born". In his defense, the Major seventh in the chord may have temporarily short circuited NHOP's amazing in-tune-ness.

On the other hand, the Hampton Hawes- Charlie Haden CD "As Long As There is Music" is full of questionable intonation, and it is still a wonderful album.

Nice that music is so many-splendored.

Steve Schuster

[musicman5string]

2 cents:

Charlie Haden has for many years now been lauded with an "incredible" ear, and does not play with a bow....ever. However, Charlie's intonation is certainly questionable many times, even if his note choices are not.

That being said, I'm pretty sure I could name out of tune notes on record from pretty much anyone; not because my record collection is so expansive, but because it's a reality on the double bass: now and then, you will play a note out of tune. Especially in Jazz as you are (supposed to be) improvising.

Whenever I think I'm playing in tune pizz, like if I'm shedding with a playalong or something, I practice with the bow to playalong cd's or even just a sustained chord on the keyboard.....instant wake up call.

Chris:
I'm not ragging on you, because I think you're playing sounds great. But: get a bow and play even whole notes along with some accompaniment and then tell us if you're in tune or not. I'm not saying you won't be...I'm just curious as to the results.