Jimmy Garrison bootleg - Page 9

iona bass · #**161** 01-13-2013, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TroyK

The problem here is that everyone plays the Berklee Real Book changes to All the Things You Are. Evidently Jerome Kern, Jimmy Garrison and I are the only ones that know that it was composed as an A-B-A form. People have been playing those ****** changes so long that they think that's how it goes.

I can't believe none of you guys got that. Go back to the source, man.

TroyK - Are you able to recommend a recording/"source" of the "A-B-A" form of ATTYA ( less than "36 bars" ), that you are referring to here? Or did you misspeak?

Thanks for your interest.

**Chris Fitzgerald** · #**162** 01-13-2013, 01:17 PM

Troy's post was an ironic joke. Just an FYI.

iona bass · #**163** 01-13-2013, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

Troy's post was an ironic joke. Just an FYI.

Oy vey. Thanks, Chris.

Jason Sypher · #**164** 01-13-2013, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TroyK

I think that you guys are just about to work this out. I'd keep going.

Yep, we're almost to the point of admitting there's really no such thing as inside or outside and no such thing as "free" playing because there are very distinct rules to free playing which make it no more "free" than "straight playing"...ouch

contrabart · #**165** 01-13-2013, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Sypher

Yep, we're almost to the point of admitting there's really no such thing as inside or outside and no such thing as "free" playing because there are very distinct rules to free playing which make it no more "free" than "straight playing"...ouch

Either that or there's no such thing as playing inside, because we take liberties and change harmonies whenever we can.

Jason Sypher · #**166** 01-13-2013, 03:44 PM

Another nice thing that came out of this thread is the idea that sometimes our mistakes are more beautiful than our intentions

nickbass · #**167** 01-13-2013, 05:52 PM

Great discussion, but I'm so disappointed that you're all blaming the bass player! Count the time through and you'll hear that at the end of chorus 4 the vibes adds 2 beats to the last bar and starts his next chorus 2 beats behind the bass and drums. (this happens at 3.00). You can hear exactly where he is because he has such strong and consistent phrasing and cadence playing all the way through - unfortunately he's 2 beats out! Bass sticks with the time, drums stays with bass for a while, then gets drawn into the vibes phrasing, so hovers uneasily between the two for the next few choruses. This discord continues right through until the place you're all discussing, which is where the bass just gives up the fight and drops down onto a pedal until he can find his way back to the vibes... (the guy still owes the bass and drums those two beats, by the way - those debts are eternal!)

iona bass · #**168** 01-13-2013, 07:05 PM

nickbass - Yes, I believe you're correct regarding the "2 beats" at the chorus starting at 3:00. (Although I still hear the bassist more than just "2 beats out" of the form in the place from 3:50 until 5:26). I agree that at 5:21 he pedals D as he searches for/anticipates the bridge.Thanks for your excellent analysis.

nickbass · #**169** 01-14-2013, 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iona bass

nickbass - Yes, I believe you're correct regarding the "2 beats" at the chorus starting at 3:00. (Although I still hear the bassist more than just "2 beats out" of the form in the place from 3:50 until 5:26). I agree that at 5:21 he pedals D as he searches for/anticipates the bridge.Thanks for your excellent analysis.

My pleasure! I think the bass is in the right place all the way through (until he finally has to cede to the vibes), but it's very hard to keep good lines when you have someone playing so strong and wrong just two beats away. I've been on both ends more than a few times...

MLysh · #**170** 01-14-2013, 09:06 AM

"The discussion here was not about Jimmy garrison, or his contribution to jazz. It was about what happened, not why it happened."

Actually, this discussion has been about who has the biggest........set of justifications for their point of view.

damonsmith · #**171** 01-14-2013, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Sypher

Yep, we're almost to the point of admitting there's really no such thing as inside or outside and no such thing as "free" playing because there are very distinct rules to free playing which make it no more "free" than "straight playing"...ouch

The rules of free playing are more like the rules of playing a game with a cat, meaning they get established when you start, are subject to change at any moment, especially if the cat isn't winning, and even still the cat might just walk away.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MLysh

"The discussion here was not about Jimmy garrison, or his contribution to jazz. It was about what happened, not why it happened."

Actually, this discussion has been about who has the biggest........set of justifications for their point of view.

Or, as I have argued, being able to have more than one point of view.

Earl · #**172** 01-14-2013, 09:29 AM

Thank you nickbass, that confirms exactly how I heard it.

contrabart · #**173** 01-14-2013, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nickbass

My pleasure! I think the bass is in the right place all the way through (until he finally has to cede to the vibes), but it's very hard to keep good lines when you have someone playing so strong and wrong just two beats away. I've been on both ends more than a few times...

You're right about the vibes. Although it's possible to hear what he plays as something that fits the (non shifted) changes, the way he plays them does suggest that he is two beats off the mark. The bass line however is not in the right place all the way through. Look at the evidence.
You're not wrong about it being hard to keep good lines in some circumstances.

MLysh · #**174** 01-14-2013, 01:25 PM

O.K. Glad that's settled...

Shall we talk about free will? Did Jimmy have a choice, or was he just a part of the music that the Universe wanted to have happen in that particular moment? Could one have stopped oneself from posting an opinion? Do you really believe you could have had an opinion other than the one you had?

Michael Case · #**175** 01-14-2013, 02:03 PM

But was JG lost? I need to know. Am I a conservative? A liberal? A cat?

Jason Sypher · #**176** 01-14-2013, 02:36 PM

Someone jumped the form. The form was defended. Neither player relented. Free jazz was heard. And the forum went berzerk..

damonsmith · #**177** 01-14-2013, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Case

But was JG lost? I need to know. Am I a conservative? A liberal? A cat?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Sypher

Someone jumped the form. The form was defended. Neither player relented. Free jazz was heard. And the forum went berzerk..

Now things are getting good...

**Chris Fitzgerald** · #**178** 01-14-2013, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Sypher

Someone jumped the form. The form was defended. Neither player relented. Free jazz was heard. And the forum went berzerk..

Ayuh. That pretty much covers it.

hdiddy · #**179** 01-14-2013, 06:11 PM

And time was wasted. yet again.

nickbass · #**180** 01-14-2013, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Case

But was JG lost? I need to know. Am I a conservative? A liberal? A cat?

"..the judgement of this court, in the light of the transcription evidence set before us, is that JG did on that fateful evening lose the form. We also find that he did so only after a long campaign of intimidation, harassment and mockery, three choruses in which the codefendant WC placed himself two beats outside the form, ignoring repeated attempts by JG and BH to rescue him. It is the opinion of this court that JG acted while the balance of his mind was disturbed, in the midst of acute distress caused to him by a formerly trusted colleague. On the charge of jazz misconduct, we therefore find JG NOT GUILTY. All costs to be paid by WC..."