Moutin Brothers

fingers · #1 03-31-2008, 07:03 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tb-S5TE035Q

Jake deVilliers · #2 03-31-2008, 10:34 PM

Very cool!

fingers · #3 04-01-2008, 12:05 PM

A few things strike me about this clip...

We harp on technique around here (as any good teacher should) but man Francois gets around with pretty unorthodox looking technique.

My understanding is that Francois has an advanced degree (a PhD I think) in Physics and his brother (the drummer) in Math.

Kinda makes ya sick.

damonsmith · #4 04-01-2008, 01:40 PM

On one hand it is great playing. On the other it is far from perfect and his musical ideas suffer from technical problems, the pitch is mostly unclear for one, and he could get around much cleaner if it weren't for his technique. Bass players like Holland, Arild Andersen and other players go for similar ideas with more complete results.
I am not trying to harp on the guy, I just don't think he is great example of not getting traditional technique. He does an adequate job with what he has, but his music - specifically the ideas he is going for, would be served better without the technical limitations.

fingers · #5 04-01-2008, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by damonsmith

He does an adequate job with what he has, but...

My point is I wish my 'adequate job' was even close to that good.

damonsmith · #6 04-01-2008, 02:41 PM

Sure, probably mine too. I just wanted to take issue with the poster-boy for unorthodox technique aspect of your post.
In my experience unorthodox technique is best for unorthodox sounds.
Again, I have been more impressed with your videos, you may be playing less than him but at least it is very clear.
Right is more is one of my favorite sayings.

fingers · #7 04-01-2008, 03:26 PM

I didn't intend to paint him as a poster boy and I will harp on my students and myself about proper technique until the day I die.

That said...

Quote:

Originally Posted by fingers

...Francois gets around with pretty unorthodox looking technique.

I don't want to start this discussion again though.

damonsmith · #8 04-01-2008, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fingers

My point is I wish my 'adequate job' was even close to that good.

That is a little defeatist, hopefully it is just false modesty. It would be better to try to do it but even better and with your own take on it.
It just takes practicing certain things everyday.

Uncletoad · #9 04-01-2008, 05:21 PM

Yea I don't see where his style is doing him any favors in musical expression. I'm a hack but he makes me look schooled.

He's got great energy and can really sell it live but close your eyes and listen and it kinda falls apart for me. I too think it's not as palatable because he's so far away from accurate that I'm not sure where he's coming from or where he's headed.

fingers · #10 04-02-2008, 07:28 AM

I can see what you are saying Phil. I guess most solo DB stuff falls a little flat for me. I love Stanley Clarke, like I've said he is the reason I picked up the bass, but I can't watch clips of him playing solo DB.

Listen to Francois in either his group, the Moutin Reunion Quartet, or with Jean Michel Pilc.

This clip is just a couple of brothers having fun. The main thing I like about it is how much fun they are having. No question there are some iffy intonation and articulation issues but I still think the playing is at a very high level.

Uncletoad · #11 04-02-2008, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fingers

I still think the playing is at a very high level.

I dunno bout that. Looks like a wank fest to me.

Pick a key, play some changes, I dont hear it.

...then again what do I know. I'm not on Youtube and nobody knows my name.

fingers · #12 04-02-2008, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by damonsmith

That is a little defeatist, hopefully it is just false modesty. It would be better to try to do it but even better and with your own take on it.
It just takes practicing certain things everyday.

If I was a defeatist I wouldn't be putting myself through the hours of daily practice and the 200+ dates a year in front of an audience. It is not false modesty either. I can't play Donna Lee like he can. I call that being realistic.

I think it is important for all of us to be comfortable with what we are good at and what we need to work on. First and foremost it makes it easier to be in our own skin. Second, it allows us to make an informed choice about how to direct our energy. Third, it makes it possible to answer questions about your abilities with prospective employers. Myself, I carry a little journal with me everywhere. If I find something that needs work I write it down. If I have an idea I'd like to repeat I write it down. That way I can direct my practice accordingly. The latest entry in my little book... work on Donna Lee.

I know you don't intend them as such but posts like these seem condescending to a guy you know has been playing for a while.

fingers · #13 04-02-2008, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncletoad

I dunno bout that. Looks like a wank fest to me.

Pick a key, play some changes, I dont hear it.

...then again what do I know. I'm not on Youtube and nobody knows my name.

This is a wankfest and intended as such IMHO.

Listen to the groups I pointed you to. My favorite is Jean Michel Pilc. Mind bending piano trio. Chris Fitzie played with him. He is familiar with what that gig is like. Such fluid improv.

Clay_Bass · #14 04-02-2008, 12:16 PM

who doesn't play out of tune notes or an occasional poorly articulated phrase. For what he has he certainley makes a lot out of it. Some of that high thumb position stuff would be pretty tricky for lots of people with good technique.

But I get what Damon's saying, somtimes his ideas don't come out right because of technique. I would check out ari hoenig though for someone who doesn't have correct technique on his instrument, but that in no way stops him from implementing any of his ideas, or getting a good sound, and he is even playing correct pitches on drums!

Jason Sypher · #15 04-02-2008, 01:42 PM

hmmm. I didn't hear it as a wankfest at all. Of course, it could be cleaner but I like a little sausage grease in my scrambled eggs.

Mark Perna · #16 04-02-2008, 01:45 PM

What a bunch of crap! Not the playing which was inspiring, spirited, inventive and, above all, highly communicative with his brother but the sour grapes posts. Poor technique!? Give me a break. He played the hell out of his bass. He had great ideas and pulled them off. He didn't use classical technique...who cares? Why should he? He has more than enough technique to pull off what he wants to pull off. Charlie Parker didn't play with good classical technique either and probably played just as many out of tune and botched notes and I don't hear anyone griping about his playing. You never hear: "yeah. Parker was pretty good but his lack of classical technique really held him back." Sheesh...get a life.

Moulton played with great time, ideas and feel. You could hear the interplay with his brother. You could almost see, hear and feel the spirit between them. It was joyous. What MORE do you want from what appears to be an off the cuff bass/drum jazz duet?

mark

fingers · #17 04-02-2008, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Sypher

hmmm. I didn't hear it as a wankfest at all. Of course, it could be cleaner but I like a little sausage grease in my scrambled eggs.

+1. Great analogy.

Were you the one saying you took lessons from him?

damonsmith · #18 04-02-2008, 01:58 PM

My gripe was not with Moutin, but with Marc. I agree with what you say about it above.
I don't agree with presenting as someone getting by just fine with poor technique. The problems with his playing are direct result of his technique - the great things are in spite of it.

It is true we all play out of tune to varying degrees, but when you decide to go out in world with technique like that it is willful, and the bottom line is it sounds like it looks.

fingers · #19 04-02-2008, 02:02 PM

Read my original post, don't read things into it. I say exactly what I mean.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fingers

A few things strike me about this clip...

We harp on technique around here (as any good teacher should) but man Francois gets around with pretty unorthodox looking technique.

My understanding is that Francois has an advanced degree (a PhD I think) in Physics and his brother (the drummer) in Math.

Kinda makes ya sick.

Uncletoad · #20 04-02-2008, 02:12 PM

Well nobody should ever mistake me for a technique nazi. I'm as far from that as you'll ever find.

I just didn't get what they were doing. Looked like fun but didn't make sense. Probably more my ears missing it than anything they were doing or not doing.

I'm listening to George Jones, my head is in a totally different place right now.