...on playing ballads

fingers · #1 03-10-2009, 08:05 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zznlnwdnj1k

**Chris Fitzgerald** · #2 03-10-2009, 11:49 AM

I got to watch the first third during lunch, and will greedily devour the rest tonight after work. Wonderful stuff - thanks for sharing.

fingers · #3 03-10-2009, 01:00 PM

You're welcome Chris.

There is just an amazing amount of info here. When more people have had the chance to watch it (I know it's long) I'd like to rap a bit. There are some great points for discussion.

joel kelsey · #4 03-10-2009, 02:30 PM

Thanks for posting. I got to work with Fred in 2004. I was in way over my head. His story is really inspiring. Amazing player.

**Chris Fitzgerald** · #5 03-10-2009, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joel kelsey

Thanks for posting. I got to work with Fred in 2004.

...and a hearty "**** you" for that, Joel.

Fred and Drew are two of my greatest unwitting musical mentors (by example only, unfortunately....).

joel kelsey · #6 03-10-2009, 03:16 PM

He brought the Leaves of Grass thing to IU. He yelled at me, because I got lost twice in the same section during the rehearsal. The performance went well though.....Chris were you playing with Lee Konitz a couple of weeks ago? Oh yeah, you also played with Ari Hoenig. So maybe, "**** you"?

**Chris Fitzgerald** · #7 03-10-2009, 04:21 PM

You got me there, Joel. I stand ****ed.

I'd still like to play with Fred, though...

fingers · #8 03-10-2009, 04:42 PM

Namedroppers.

Paul Warburton · #9 03-10-2009, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fingers

Namedroppers.

Me too, me too. I got a couple nice kisses planted on my cheek from Fred. He's a piece of work. I love him.
Drew has such a great sound. (among other things)
Great stuff, Marc...thanks.

fingers · #10 03-10-2009, 08:20 PM

Unfortunately I think Fred has had some pretty extensive and serious (life-threatening) health issues recently. I think he's ok for now but there was an open letter he wrote to the music community describing what was up. I can try to find it but it was some pretty heavy ****.

**Chris Fitzgerald** · #11 03-10-2009, 10:19 PM

There's so much to like there, especially the notion of "ballad as ballad" as opposed to a showcase to shift into upper divisions of the beat and show off chops. I love the part where he talks about the ballad as the "11 o'clock song", and says that he feels that by that point in the set, he's "earned" the right to play a ballad. I can totally relate to that. Or when Jane talks about the melody as a touchstone around which to create a countermelody - sometimes you merge with it, sometimes you play around it and hint at it, and sometimes you depart from it.

[dime store philosophy]
Jazz is a funny thing that way. Even within its status as a relatively unpopular and often narcissistic (albeit highly skilled) art form, players of the highest caliber still play things that might no longer interest them as much as they once did in order to get to (earn the right to play?) the stuff that they're really into at the moment. An example is that many people I know would prefer to play all or mostly originals; many, in order to work and connect with an audience, play things that are more accessible (less inaccessible) in order to pave the way for the acceptance of the originals. It's ironic, especially considering that the spirit that creates the originals and whatever else the performer is into is what the people who really listen to the music really want to hear, although they might not even realize it.
[/dime store philosophy]

fingers · #12 03-10-2009, 10:45 PM

Here are some of my favorite quotes.

"The shape of the beat" - Fred

"Circular momentum" - Fred

"wide open spaces" - Drew

"emotional rhythm" - Fred

"physical aspect" - Jane

"flow of body metabolism" - Jane

"physically change your internal self" - Jane

To me all of of these speak to something that I really love about certain players and really bothered me about others. For example you never hear Drew anywhere in this play something as a rhythmic place marker. Every note means something. From all three of them. So me they are truly breathing together. There is a flow and a forward motion. Flow is another word that gets used a bunch.

"You're naked, all there is is a line" - Jane

joel kelsey · #13 03-10-2009, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fingers

Unfortunately I think Fred has had some pretty extensive and serious (life-threatening) health issues recently. I think he's ok for now but there was an open letter he wrote to the music community describing what was up. I can try to find it but it was some pretty heavy ****.

yeah. I heard he was in a medically induced coma (with a breathing tube)for a long time. I also heard once he woke up, he had to relearn EVERYTHING. Talking, walking, swallowing, piano playing, everything.....

dgelting · #14 03-11-2009, 12:07 AM

Beautiful. Thanks.

Scott McC · #15 03-11-2009, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

There's so much to like there, especially the notion of "ballad as ballad" as opposed to a showcase to shift into upper divisions of the beat and show off chops. I love the part where he talks about the ballad as the "11 o'clock song", and says that he feels that by that point in the set, he's "earned" the right to play a ballad. I can totally relate to that. Or when Jane talks about the melody as a touchstone around which to create a countermelody - sometimes you merge with it, sometimes you play around it and hint at it, and sometimes you depart from it.

[dime store philosophy]
Jazz is a funny thing that way. Even within its status as a relatively unpopular and often narcissistic (albeit highly skilled) art form, players of the highest caliber still play things that might no longer interest them as much as they once did in order to get to (earn the right to play?) the stuff that they're really into at the moment. An example is that many people I know would prefer to play all or mostly originals; many, in order to work and connect with an audience, play things that are more accessible (less inaccessible) in order to pave the way for the acceptance of the originals. It's ironic, especially considering that the spirit that creates the originals and whatever else the performer is into is what the people who really listen to the music really want to hear, although they might not even realize it.
[/dime store philosophy]

Man, I think we "Jazzers" could use more "dime store philosophy", as opposed to constant hyper-analytical, academic evaluation. I think you're totally right about us needing go after the spirit of things more, rather than proving something. Oh, great vid. Thanks

fingers · #16 03-11-2009, 10:04 AM

Personally I've been really concentrating on my own ballad playing for a few years now. I think ballads are hard. I also think they get skated over because they are hard. A beautiful tune can so easily turn into a funeral dirge. To really compel an audience with sheer emotion is scary. You don't want to tell your story to deaf ears.

You may recall a few years back when I posted a recording of In A Sentimental Mood. Since then I've been really thinking and listening to what I consider masters of the ballad, Fred being one of them.

In the exploration I learned how important a very firm mastery of time is. Your time needs to be as solid as when you are walking but not as overt. This is what I was mentioning about place markers. This makes a ballad sound square to me. Drew talks about this a bit. This video has really kicked by butt again.

An interesting story. I was doing a gig a few months ago with a singer in Chicago named Erin McDougald. Her usual guy had another gig. So I was subbing in and we got to a ballad and I guess something about my new found approach struck her. We finished the tune and she looked at me and just said "Wow." We talked during the break and she was really floored about what she called the "emotive quality" of my ballad playing.

To me it is about the flow. It is about making every note matter.

Paul Warburton · #17 03-11-2009, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fingers

We finished the tune and she looked at me and just said "Wow." We talked during the break and she was really floored about what she called the "emotive quality" of my ballad playing.

Right on, Marc. And if you've learned anything from me around here, you took complete advantage of this great situation.

**Chris Fitzgerald** · #18 03-11-2009, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott McC

Man, I think we "Jazzers" could use more "dime store philosophy", as opposed to constant hyper-analytical, academic evaluation. I think you're totally right about us needing go after the spirit of things more, rather than proving something.

For me the irony is compounded on the part of the players, many of whom don't try to imbue the "accessible/pave the way" stuff with the same spirit as the originals. Fred does, of course, and I try to...but with many players/groups I feel I can hear when a tune or part is being phoned in by a player who may light up the stage with energy later that same set playing something that they're really into. My goal as a musician is not to do this. The (personal) rule I try to adhere to is simply: If you're play at all, play all out. Otherwise, leave your axe in the case and make room for those who really want to play.

**Chris Fitzgerald** · #19 03-11-2009, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fingers

You may recall a few years back when I posted a recording of In A Sentimental Mood. Since then I've been really thinking and listening to what I consider masters of the ballad, Fred being one of them.

In the exploration I learned how important a very firm mastery of time is. Your time needs to be as solid as when you are walking but not as overt. This is what I was mentioning about place markers. This makes a ballad sound square to me.

Bingo. You have to take into account who you're playing with and how little timekeeping info they can actually handle and still feel comfortable, but playing in a group where the timekeeping is solid internally on the part of everyone involved is a beautiful experience.

Quote:

To me it is about the flow. It is about making every note matter.

Agreed. I like to think of it as playing every moment matter instead, since any given moment might also be silence. But yeah, as stated in the vid, time slows down, and I like the notion that metabolism does, too.

Paul Warburton · #20 03-11-2009, 11:12 AM

Agreed....both of you's.
I was just thinking about ballad players who have influenced my playing and listening.
As Jane intimates in the video....Sinatra. As some of you know, I'm fond of the word "substance" as regards music. I'm also, like Ed and a few others here on the board, a great believer in players knowing the lyrics...I love Fred's tip of his hat to Jimmy Rowles briefcase story....they covered all that really nice.
A couple other big ones for me...Miles, Bill, and Jim Hall.
And of course...dare I say it again? Red Mitchell. And, to quote that last guy one more, once..."Simple Isn't Easy".
I love substance.