advanced jazz theory question (minor key harmony related)

[Stereo Joe]

I had some questions about differing approaches to minor key harmony, but the responses are coming in pretty slow on the EB side, so I was hoping some of you fine folk could help me out?

The original thread is here:
advanced jazz theory question (minor key harmony related)

Thanks!

[Damon Rondeau]

I like how you ended your first post in that other thread:

So far, my initial impressions (only of ii V i's so far) are that melodic minor harmony sounds a little more spicy but also more nebulous, with less clear direction and resolution to the i. What do you think?

You did absolutely the right thing by listening to both approaches and seeing how they sound to you.

I'm definitely the wrong guy to answer theory questions. It's only a language to understand music and talk about music. Having done that listening, you're in a position now to say "if you look at it this way and do this it sounds like this: <musical noise here>. If you look at it this other way and do this other thing, it sounds like <another musical noise here>."

The idea is that eventually you will be the boss of what note and what sound comes out of your bass at what time, never mind what the theory says. You hear it, you play it....

But maybe some theory guys will come along and give you some real help! You won't find any cookie cutters for making cookies, though...

[Stereo Joe]

Thanks! Yeah, I love how jazz can have so many possibilities and different ways to interpret ideas. I guess I'm just curious about how other jazz players approach minor harmony and how applicable they've found their approach to be. Eventually I'll be able to piece together a system for myself, but I like getting as much input from others as possible. Perhaps there is even a completely different way of looking at minor harmony?

[TomSauter]

Both of those approaches are really common, and they basically just suggest 2 different types of voice leading. The ii locrian #2 / V alt. / i works because the #2 of the ii chord leads nicely to the #5 of the V chord, which in turn leads nicely to the 9th of the i chord. Hopefully that's not too confusing! The harmonic minor approach works because you can generalize with the harmonic minor scale over the whole ii/V/i. I personally use the harmonic minor more often because it's way easier to play. The locrian #2 thing is also a more modern sound.

Another thing you find people doing a lot is alternating between minor and diminished. For example, you can go back and forth between Bb minor and A dim. like in the intro to the tune Bebop. Then there's the modal approach which is a whole seperate thread....

As far as your question about Stella by Starlight, that's kind of a tricky example, because it's not a normal minor ii/V. The tune is in Bb but it starts on E-b5/A7. That's really a substitution for Bb dim, and it happens in lots of other songs too. If it did resolve to a D-, then what type of scale you used would depend on what chords came after. If it stayed on D- for a while, then you could treat it like a regular ii/V/i and approach it with hamonic minor or locrian #2 etc. If the D- was immediately followed by G7/C-/F7/Bb or something like that, then you would probably treat it as a diatonic iii chord in the key of Bb, which would make it phrygian. Sometimes people might use dorian though. Anyway.......

In my opinion, your best bet is to not be preoccupied with all this theoretical stuff and just transcribe some solos on tunes that have a lot of minor material, like 'Softly', 'Summertime', 'Alone Together', or a minor blues. It's better to be able to play some stuff that sounds good and not really know why it works than to know a bunch theory and sound like crap.

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by Damon Rondeau

I like how you ended your first post in that other thread:



You did absolutely the right thing by listening to both approaches and seeing how they sound to you.

I'm definitely the wrong guy to answer theory questions. It's only a language to understand music and talk about music. Having done that listening, you're in a position now to say "if you look at it this way and do this it sounds like this: <musical noise here>. If you look at it this other way and do this other thing, it sounds like <another musical noise here>."

The idea is that eventually you will be the boss of what note and what sound comes out of your bass at what time, never mind what the theory says. You hear it, you play it....

But maybe some theory guys will come along and give you some real help! You won't find any cookie cutters for making cookies, though...

I had a workshop with the great coronet player Bobby Bradford and he said, "If you want to play something play it! Do you think Sonny Rollins gives a f*&% what you think when he is playin' that Caribbean Sh**?

[Co.]

I think you should always approach harmony as clearly as possible, that means use the scale, that is as directly as possible related to the chord movement. Of course you can play mixob9b13 or alt or HTWT or anything, but you should always start from the material, that is directly related.

The most "natural" Dominant to a minor Tonic, no matter if that is aeol, dor, hm or mm, is the mixob9b13, because it is just the fifth mode of HM, so both the dominant and the tonic share all tones, but one, which is the leading tone. For example: E7->Am
E7: E F G# A B C D
Am:A B C D E F G
But you can easily add a Gnatural to the E7, making it melodically more consonant, by avoiding the aug2 between F and G#.
The corresponding II is B loc.

This is the most conservative (and boring) approach, but you don't get much clearer.

[RTB72]

Hey bro.....by the specific nature of your question you obviously are on the right track.

Step back a bit and use you ears...choose what you like best on any given occasion.

Both approaches can be used on any ii-v.....

<regarding resolution to min>...I generally assume dorian type sound as aeolian and melodic minor are very specific sounds that occur in specific places.

Always keep the Levine book Handy tho

Good luck

RTB