Approaching Melodic Soloing through Blanket Scales

[robw]

I hope I don't get off topic on this one, but a question came to mind - unrelated to the last batch of posts on minor modes (good posts, by the way).

As I go over the breakdown of how the modes are composed and how the 4 note chords of the key are derived from those modes, I notice every chord is a 7th: Maj, Min, or Dom. Since only the V chord is dominant, then it seems easy to tell what key you are in if you see a Dom7 in the progression. And if you see two Dom7s (ie. C7 followed by D7) then you know the key is changed.

However, I realized that many times I don't see Maj7 or Dom7, but instead the chords are written as G, D, C, etc. (signifying triads, I suppose). Is there a difference between the I, IV, V chords when they are triads? For instance in the key of G, the I, IV, V would be G, C, D, but the D wouldn't always be written or played D7. Also, if it's a triad it wouldn't be a D7 anyway. Wouldn't it be a D? Does the distinction of the dominant/major chord go away when you are playing triads? If it helps, this question comes to mind from the perspective of playing guitar chords over a progression. I have always understood that in a G, C, D progression they are all major chords. So, in any key, the I, IV, V would be all major chords. I'm not sure how to understand the dominant chord.

I can tie all of this into the blanket approach, because it relates to identifying a chord progression and finding the right "blanket scale" notes to play, which means identifying the key. My question comes about, because I realized the V chord won't always be spelled out as a Dom7, and that I don't really understand the difference between dominant and major.

[Chad Ball]

The difference between a dom7th and a major 7th is (you guessed it) the seventh tone of the scale. Say you are looking at a Cmaj7th chord -- to spell that one out in chord tones would be C, E, G, B (the major 7th). To turn that into a dominant seventh, simply lower the seventh (B) by half a step, making it Bb. To hear the difference, try holding a C on your A string, while playing it's major seventh on the G. Then, make it a dominant seventh. You should hear a difference in the tonal colour.

[anonymous0726]

Pardon the algebraic notation:

M=major, 2 steps up from the root for third, half step below root for seventh
m=minor, 1 1/2 steps up from the root for third, whole step below root for seventh
p=perfect
f=flatted 

R    3    5    7

X    M    p    M = XMaj7
X    M    p    f = X7
X    m    p    f = X-7
X    m    f    f = X-7(b5) or X half-diminished

[robw]

Thanks. That helps.

If I can do the cyberspace equivalent of thinking out loud, there is no difference between major and dominant chords when playing a triad (root, 3, 5) except as a matter of identifying where the chord fits into the key (ie. semantics).

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally posted by robw

If I can do the cyberspace equivalent of thinking out loud, there is no difference between major and dominant chords when playing a triad (root, 3, 5) except as a matter of identifying where the chord fits into the key (ie. semantics).

Correct, unless you are thinking of the implied chord scale (or mode, if you prefer) behind the chord.

[Chad Ball]

Well now...it's been a while.
I've been employing this blanket scales with various degrees of success. My main shortcoming, it seems, is to make things sound interesting while maintaining the blanket scale. Does anybody have tips or thoughts as to the develop[ment of a melodic idea through this approach?

sure is hot outside.
cb

[Monte]

Originally posted by Chad Ball
Well now...it's been a while.
My main shortcoming, it seems, is to make things sound interesting while maintaining the blanket scale. Does anybody have tips or thoughts as to the develop[ment of a melodic idea through this approach?

sure is hot outside.
cb

Well,

This doesn't have anything to do with melodic development, but it has sure helped me. I'm FAR from a good soloist (it's easily the worst part of my bass playing), but a really good trumpet player once told me that you can play the wrong notes, and if they are played with a good rhythm they will sound ok. Phrasing and rhythmic concept comes from listening to other soloists. Bird was a master of phrasing. Sing while you play; even if the notes aren't the same, your rhythm may be better.

And most simply, Lynn Seaton drilled us all on "don't ignore the melody." Mix in parts of the melody with your scales and arpeggios. Bassists are the worst at learning heads to tunes; learn them and figure out where you can use them as quotes. Dexter Gordon quoted constantly, and it was always hip.

Just a little advice from someone trying to get there.

Monte

[anonymous0726]

Here are a couple of way to help guide a melodic line that you might try.

First is to pick a note. Random will do, but easy ones to start with are root, third, 5th. Make this note the focus of your line. Start there, end there, tease it, follow it as it moves half steps here and there and it goes thorugh the changes.

Second is grab a motif. Say something like 3-1-2-3, with some rhythimic statement. Apply this pattern around here and there (and also starting it on different degrees of the scale). A couple of great examples of this are 'Autumn Leaves' and almost anything Michel LeGrand wrote...

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Bump.

[moley]

I agree with what you're saying here, Chris.

It's like, IIRC, Levine says - think key not chord. Focus on the tonal centres.

I think he used Giant Steps as an example of this. If you're trying to solo over this chord-by-chord, well, you're not gonna make it easy for yourself.

Whereas, if you look at tonal centres, it becomes much more manageable, and conducive to more melodic solos. And of course, there are only three tonal centres in Giant Steps - B, Eb and G.

[bass87]

Great thread and great advice Chris. I am trying to get into soloing and what I have done so far never seems to flow, and now I realise that's because I am playing the chords, not the tonal centre of the progression.

I've also noticed at the jazz band I play in, the conductor always tells the soloists the key of phrase which they solo over, not the individual chords. I should have noticed this earlier

Anyway thanks for the great advice, keep it up

[kiwlm]

bump.

About "The Chicken", the chords are as such
Bb7 Eb7 D7 G7 C7 Bb7

can I assume that the "D G C" phrase is in the key of G? and that I will use the G Major scale to play over (supporting, not soloing) the 3 chords?

I have another question, let say we have 3 chords in the key of G
G7 C7 D7

The 7th in the G chord is "F", when we come to the C chord, can we still use the "F" (4th of C[ionian] and minor 7th of G) instead of "F#" (4th of C[lydian] and major 7th of G)?

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by KIWILEMON

bump.

About "The Chicken", the chords are as such
Bb7 Eb7 D7 G7 C7 Bb7

What "chicken" might that be? Did I miss something?

Originally Posted by KEYLIME

I have another question, let say we have 3 chords in the key of G
G7 C7 D7

The 7th in the G chord is "F", when we come to the C chord, can we still use the "F" (4th of C[ionian] and minor 7th of G) instead of "F#" (4th of C[lydian] and major 7th of G)?

In the first place, three different dominant chords can't really be "in the key" of anything - they are going to contain chromatic note variations. In the second place, for anyone to give more of an answer to your question, you'll need to supply a lot more context than that. What you're asking right now is akin to, "should I use salt or sugar when I cook"?

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

What "chicken" might that be? Did I miss something?

I assume this :




Courtesy of Lucas Pickford!!


Personally, in this tune, I tend to treat each new chord as a change of key centre - but I wouldn't like to say whether this is the correct "approach" or not....?

[Michael Case]

This is a great thread, I read it about a year ago and started using this theory. Now I feel like I need to bring my playing to the next level, add more chromatic passing tones, and get off the root (that is my one complaint about this method).
I know I need to hear what I play before I play it, I've heard that alot now. I will say I do hear a good percentage of what I play beforehand, but I also know that 85% of the time I need to hear a tonic or I'm not able to hear anything else.
What I'm asking for is something I can use in the practice room that would help.
Thanks

[kiwlm]

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

What "chicken" might that be? Did I miss something?

The chicken by Jaco Pastorius, as Bruce have given the links...

In the first place, three different dominant chords can't really be "in the key" of anything - they are going to contain chromatic note variations. In the second place, for anyone to give more of an answer to your question, you'll need to supply a lot more context than that. What you're asking right now is akin to, "should I use salt or sugar when I cook"?

The chords are found in "The Chicken", that was the context...

So, more answers?

p/s: My nick have nothing to do with kiwi, lemon or lime! Its an abbreviation of something (not my name)

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by KIASBDFZsLHQWSDZXSM

The chicken by Jaco Pastorius, as Bruce have given the links...



The chords are found in "The Chicken", that was the context...

So, more answers?

Since the tune is really a funk blues, you can't exactly place it in a "key" in the classical sense (although the key center is pretty clearly Bb). However, where the "blanket scale/key" theory can help here is in the relation of one tonal center to the next. In the case of Dominants which resolve by 5ths, you end up with "scale" or "Key center" which alters by one pitch each time a chord resolves.

i.e. -

D7 = D E F# G A B ..C D
G7 = D E F ..G A B ..C D
C7 = D E F ..G A Bb C D

So rather than thinking of three completely different scales in this passage, you can think of one pretty simple key center with a bunch of common tones(D, E, G, A C - a.k.a. the Cma/Ami pentatonic scale) which happens to have one changing note each time the chord changes. Does that help at all?

[kiwlm]

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

D7 = D E F# G A B ..C D
G7 = D E F ..G A B ..C D
C7 = D E F ..G A Bb C D

So rather than thinking of three completely different scales in this passage, you can think of one pretty simple key center with a bunch of common tones(D, E, G, A C - a.k.a. the Cma/Ami pentatonic scale) which happens to have one changing note each time the chord changes. Does that help at all?

Wow, it took me like 20 minutes to understand what you are trying to say. It did bring some light... but also brought more questions! If the song is in blues with the same chords G7, C7 and D7, I would have think that I could just use the G major scale blanket. But you put it in such a way that the C major scale blanket should be used, I noticed its because of the 7ths involved...

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by kwidjhfvbsldkfrt

Wow, it took me like 20 minutes to understand what you are trying to say. It did bring some light... but also brought more questions! If the song is in blues with the same chords G7, C7 and D7, I would have think that I could just use the G major scale blanket. But you put it in such a way that the C major scale blanket should be used, I noticed its because of the 7ths involved...

OK, let's clear something up before we go any further: The term "Blanket Scale" doesn't really mean a "scale", it's more about a collection of notes that remain constant through a series of chords. It's not a scale with a root that you practice running up and down from and to, just a way of thinking of note collections. Does that make sense?

This song is not the best example to use when discussing the subject because it's not really "in" any key but is more of a blues tune with a bridge kinda thing. In the case of the section we were discussing, while the notes "C D E G A" remain constant through the three theoretical "chord scales", they are in many ways the least ineresting notes to play because they do not emphasize the changes.

But more importantly, the melody for that whole section is basically just a superimposed Bb major pentatonic scale (occasionally hints at Bb minor pent), so the chords are just being used for color anyway. If you want to look at the intent of the melody, the entire song is just a blues jam - take away the "A naturals" in the D7 measure, and the entire melody is just a mix of Bb Major pentatonic and the Bb blues scale...so if you're looking for an easy way to get around soloing on this tune, go back to the earlier "WDMD" (what does the melody do?) statement in the thread and start by treating it as a Bb blues and use those blues and pentatonic tonalities for soloing until you get bored with that. There's lot's to explore in that realm before you need to analyze the changes of a tune like this more deeply.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

This song is not the best example to use when discussing the subject because it's not really "in" any key but is more of a blues tune with a bridge kinda thing. In the case of the section we were discussing, while the notes "C D E G A" remain constant through the three theoretical "chord scales", they are in many ways the least ineresting notes to play because they do not emphasize the changes.

That's exactly why I said : "I tend to treat each new chord as a change of key centre"...

This is a fun tune to play, as you have plenty of time to treat each chord change as a new tonal centre and still experiment with funky rhythmic displacements, motifs - that kind of thing.

Whereas, if it was a 32-bar bebop tune with two chords per bar going past at 270 - then I'd be thinking about which notes all the chords had in common and try to hit a few of those!!