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  #81  
Old 06-10-2004, 06:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLUES MINEFIELD
That's exactly why I said : "I tend to treat each new chord as a change of key centre"...

This is a fun tune to play, as you have plenty of time to treat each chord change as a new tonal centre and still experiment with funky rhythmic displacements, motifs - that kind of thing.

Whereas, if it was a 32-bar bebop tune with two chords per bar going past at 270 - then I'd be thinking about which notes all the chords had in common and try to hit a few of those!!
And with all due respect, this is exactly how the above morphing of your name came to be in the first place.

In a tune like this, I think that the "blues" element is central to the character of the piece, and should be both the starting point and the point of departure. Since the melody is basically formed around pentatonic and blues in Bb, I hear that as being "home base" for the tune, and feel that as a soloist it is beneficial to have a solid sense of "home" before beginning your travels abroad. I think that outlining the changing chromatics in the "bridge" section is one nice option to get around that section of the tune, but I also feel it would be silly to focus too much on that before learning to "jam out" on the blues aspect as the melody does. As an analogy, I'd say that it's better to learn to construct simple sentences with short common words before attempting prose with longer more esoteric vocabulary and lots of subordinate clauses. But that's just me.

A good compromise might be focusing on the Bb blues tonality overall, and then working on emphasizing the two sets of chromatic resolutions within the "bridge" (F#-F-E, C-B-Bb) within that context before treating each chord as an entirely seperate tonality. You can take an American out of America, but try take the American out of an American, and that's an entirely different ball of wax.
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  #82  
Old 06-10-2004, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monte
Well,

This doesn't have anything to do with melodic development, but it has sure helped me. I'm FAR from a good soloist (it's easily the worst part of my bass playing), but a really good trumpet player once told me that you can play the wrong notes, and if they are played with a good rhythm they will sound ok. Phrasing and rhythmic concept comes from listening to other soloists. Bird was a master of phrasing. Sing while you play; even if the notes aren't the same, your rhythm may be better.

And most simply, Lynn Seaton drilled us all on "don't ignore the melody." Mix in parts of the melody with your scales and arpeggios. Bassists are the worst at learning heads to tunes; learn them and figure out where you can use them as quotes. Dexter Gordon quoted constantly, and it was always hip.

Just a little advice from someone trying to get there.

Monte


I will second this. My solos did not start to get interesting until I put more thought in to the rhythmic development of an idea. You could play a long phrase on only three or four notes and still make it hip. It makes a good starting point, anyway. Don't let this point make things worse by thinking "now I have more to think about". Just take the theory you do know and find some of the more simple tunes you can play well. Start with simple ideas, use lots of space. Focus on phrasing and "swinging hard". That's my $.02.
  #83  
Old 06-10-2004, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald
And with all due respect, this is exactly how the above morphing of your name came to be in the first place.

In a tune like this, I think that the "blues" element is central to the character of the piece, and should be both the starting point and the point of departure. Since the melody is basically formed around pentatonic and blues in Bb, I hear that as being "home base" for the tune, and feel that as a soloist it is beneficial to have a solid sense of "home" before beginning your travels abroad. I think that outlining the changing chromatics in the "bridge" section is one nice option to get around that section of the tune, but I also feel it would be silly to focus too much on that before learning to "jam out" on the blues aspect as the melody does. As an analogy, I'd say that it's better to learn to construct simple sentences with short common words before attempting prose with longer more esoteric vocabulary and lots of subordinate clauses. But that's just me.

A good compromise might be focusing on the Bb blues tonality overall, and then working on emphasizing the two sets of chromatic resolutions within the "bridge" (F#-F-E, C-B-Bb) within that context before treating each chord as an entirely seperate tonality. You can take an American out of America, but try take the American out of an American, and that's an entirely different ball of wax.

I know what you're saying about it being a Blues - but having heard so many Jaco versions over the years(as well our own Craig Garfinkel's !) - I can only think of it as funky R&B, where the important thing is the groove, subdividing the bar and adding some rhythmic interest - I'm thinking more James Brown than Muddy Waters!!!
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  #84  
Old 06-10-2004, 09:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald
D7 = D E F# G A B ..C D
G7 = D E F ..G A B ..C D
C7 = D E F ..G A Bb C D
I just realized, by the notes that you give, we are supposed to assume all chords are of Ionian?

Oh yeah, what's the diff between R&B and Blues??
  #85  
Old 11-21-2011, 02:57 AM
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Hi,

Just read this post and I find it very interesting. The blanket method is very important... But I have some problem, i want to apply to method to the tune "Summertime" but I couldn't. If someone could help me. Here is the changes.

Ami |Bb7 |Ami E7|Ami A7|
Dmi |F7 |F#mi7 B7|E7 |
Ami |Bb7 |Ami |D7 |
C Ami|D7 E7|Ami D7|Bmi7 E7|

Thanks
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  #86  
Old 11-21-2011, 05:47 AM
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Here is an example of how to apply this approach to Summertime. It's in D minor rather than A minor, though.
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  #87  
Old 11-21-2011, 06:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald View Post
Here is an example of how to apply this approach to Summertime. It's in D minor rather than A minor, though.
Hi Christ,

thanks for your answer, that really help. I also asked myself what is the real key of that tune, as the version I putted here was realbook vol II one, page 323, and on jamey aebersold the key is D minor as you said

Thanks
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  #88  
Old 11-21-2011, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Therion View Post
Hi Christ,

thanks for your answer, that really help. I also asked myself what is the real key of that tune, as the version I putted here was realbook vol II one, page 323, and on jamey aebersold the key is D minor as you said

Thanks
You're welcome. I didn't mean that your key was incorrect, only that the example I was posting was in a different key. IMO, the correct key for any tune is the key you want to play it in.
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  #89  
Old 11-21-2011, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald View Post
You're welcome. I didn't mean that your key was incorrect, only that the example I was posting was in a different key. IMO, the correct key for any tune is the key you want to play it in.
Thanks again, don't worry I know you didn't mean my key is incorrect one...I just notice I saw different key in aebersold books. It also seems to me as I heard some Miles Davis version played in Bb
Any way thanks for your help.
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  #90  
Old 11-21-2011, 11:39 PM
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Good thread -- glad it was bumped, because I probably wouldn't have found it ...

Getting right back to the beginning, but picking up on something Christ (Jeez, he's good, but really? ) said much later; do you (Christ) see the "blanket scale" as something like the pitch collection from the tune's melody, a la Ed Byrne, who teaches an improvisation method that starts with a kind of "stripped back" melody, each element of which then becomes the target of a chromatic or semi-chromatic approach?
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  #91  
Old 11-22-2011, 12:13 AM
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  #92  
Old 11-22-2011, 05:32 AM
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Originally Posted by GrowlerBox View Post
Good thread -- glad it was bumped, because I probably wouldn't have found it ...

Getting right back to the beginning, but picking up on something Chris said much later; do you (Chris) see the "blanket scale" as something like the pitch collection from the tune's melody, a la Ed Byrne, who teaches an improvisation method that starts with a kind of "stripped back" melody, each element of which then becomes the target of a chromatic or semi-chromatic approach?
I don't know Ed Byrne, so I can't answer that part. To me, the melody is the most important part of the tune, and is often a good indicator of the essence of the stripped down key center(s) involved in the harmony no matter how much the harmonization (and subsequent reharms) is made to embellish and disguise things in this regard.

But with regard to key centers, if you include only the diatonic chords in each key center, you end up with only seven notes in the key center. If you expand this to include all of the secondary dominant, secondary diminished, and tritone subs that often occur in harmonizations of jazz melodies, you end up with a chromatic scale in which each of the five remaining chromatic notes has a resolution tendency to one of the diatonic notes of the key center depending on the function of the secondary chord happening in the harmony at that time. I'm short on time, but I'll attach a pdf handout that I use in a jazz theory class to illustrate this (students in the class have to fill this sheet out in all 12 major and minor keys). This helps students understand how many different chords function in context rather than looking at each one as if it had a separate "chord scale" attached to it regardless of where it was used.



(Edited to add a filled in version of the same pdf)

Attached Files
File Type: pdf Cast of Char (Ma-Jazz) II.pdf (36.0 KB, 728 views)
File Type: pdf CoC (major-jazz key).pdf (65.3 KB, 751 views)
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  #93  
Old 11-22-2011, 12:54 PM
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This is great!

This is great Chris. Hope you don't mind us using this for our own students! Of course I will sight the source!
  #94  
Old 11-22-2011, 01:11 PM
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Please do! Most students find that when a tune is analyzed in this way, a lot of chords that were once mysterious anomalies can be seen as simply part of the key center, which makes tunes a lot easier to navigate.
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  #95  
Old 11-22-2011, 01:45 PM
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THis is exactly how i learned to improvise my self..

Most standards travel through very few key centers..

Even giant steps is just in 3 key centers....

I thought this was the way most of the old jazz guys approached playing over changes?
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Last edited by cire113 : 11-22-2011 at 02:06 PM.
  #96  
Old 11-22-2011, 06:58 PM
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I realize this thread is about soloing, but wouldn't the concept of Blanket Scales assist in improvising walking bass lines as well as in soloing?
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  #97  
Old 11-23-2011, 02:18 AM
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^^ I guess technically they could however I think walking bass is more about outlining chords... there is a bit more freedom when soloing versus holding down the harmony

But yeah sometimes you connect roots of chords with scale tones
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  #98  
Old 11-23-2011, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald View Post
I don't know Ed Byrne, so I can't answer that part. To me, the melody is the most important part of the

<snip>

(Edited to add a filled in version of the same pdf)

Thank you Chris. That brings purpose to the chaos, for me. 8-)

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  #99  
Old 11-23-2011, 08:12 AM
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Someone else posted this in another similar thread, and I thought I'd repost it here. This is Hal Galper's take on the notion of each chord having its own scale. Gee, Hal, what do you really think? (I completely agree with Hal on this one)

Hal Galper's Master Class - Technique, Part 2 - YouTube
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  #100  
Old 08-10-2012, 03:34 PM
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I hope it's not too late, but in the original post, Chris said something about not all jazz chords implying Dorian. I've been drilled by teachers and fellow musicians that in almost every case Jazz=Dorian and Classical=Aeolian.

How do you differentiate when a chord implies Dorian or aeolian? Are you just going by the relative major (Ab)?
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