atonal music

[sixontimber]

Originally Posted by Howard K

Just a little update, I got some more info from this guy this arvo... his posts weren't at all clear this morning - his explantion of how the tabbed riff was used to create atonal music was spread across several posts...

His (probably pretty scary) metal band take a simple 8th note riff, then repeat the same pattern of intervals starting on a random note each time. So, effectively playing a melody that doesnt have a tonal centre (unless repeated?) and then shifting it to written random start points each bar, to create a long, complex series of notes with no tonal centre and virtually no repetition.
They use "the riff" to create atonal music. Quite smart I thought, but then I'm only a bass player

I cant imagine it sounds very nice, but then that's the point in metal I guess!!

This isn't necessarily atonal - more like transposition.

[rickbass]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

Hmm...well - Schoenberg is commonly credited with this - but he really developed "serialism" and the 12 tone row - in fact he hated the term "atonal"

Copland was no pioneer of atonality-

Bartok, as far as I know wasn't influenced by atonality at all -

I guess our educational experiences were different. As you know, in the university, you have to regurgitate what has been offered by the professor. My highest level music professor used to hand out the sheet music at the beginning of every class and we had to read it like a text as we listened to music. Most of the students in our class were aspiring conductors and I was sort of the "germ" in the class.

So what I'm saying is - He could have been wrong.....but it's all I know.

Some points;

> Whether or not Schoenberg hated the term, "atonal". - "you is what you is." Any decent text on atonality brings up his name in the first paragraph or two

> I NEVER SAID Copland was a "pioneer" of atonality. He merely incorporated it and wasn't afraid to use it when tonality was how the vast majority of composers were reliant on tonality.

> Bartok not into "atonality at all" ?!?!........well, we went to different schools. True, he hid the atonal aspects, but they were there.
I know, because in my last year of college, our final exam was wearing headphones and dissecting what we heard on the music we were hearing..........and Bartok's use of all kind of polytonality and whatever just zapped my grade.
Then again, maybe my professor, a hotshot with the St. Louis Symphony could have wrong.

[lemur821]

Partch does alot of atonal stuff, as well microtonal stuff. Perhaps you've just missed those.

Yes, that's entirely possible, my listening experience consists of his Dionysus opera, the name of which I forget, and a couple of snippets. The snippets, which I just reviewed, seemed quite tonal to me. Especially one of them, which uses his marimba eroica to provide a drone.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by LOSE REINGOLD

Along with Berg and Webern though, he did pioneer what is now known as atonal music - in the "Viennese school".

Actually, that's the "Second Viennese school" - the first being a term used to describe the music of Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, and to a certain degree, Brahms.

Originally Posted by APPALACHIAN SPRINGFIELD

]Copland was no pioneer of atonality- but was a fan of Schoenberg when he was young - he is definitely most famous for his works which are very melodic and searching for an Amercian music - inlcuding elements of Jazz, the old West etc.

Copland actualy did some wonderfull dabbling with atonality - it's just not as well known as his tonal works. Check out his "Piano Variations", which later became his "Variations for Orchestra". If those aren't atonal, then I don't know what the word means! (I played this piece back in undergrad, and it's one of my all-time favorite "atonal" pieces).

Originally Posted by BELA LINDGOSI

Bartok, as far as I know wasn't influenced by atonality at all -

Check out his 4th Quartet sometime, then get back to me and see if you still want to stand behind that statement.

[Howard K]

Originally Posted by sixontimber

This isn't necessarily atonal - more like transposition.

Music. To write or perform (a composition) in a key other than the original or given key.

Well, I did consider that it was just repeating a riff in random 'keys'... But the riff he used as an example implied two chords in a bar, neither either of which seemed like a tonic (unless the riff was repeated each bar?) - i.e. as far as I could tell there was no obivously II-V or V-I relationship between the implied chords.

Heck I dunno it's intersting all the same!

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

Copland actualy did some wonderfull dabbling with atonality - it's just not as well known as his tonal works. Check out his "Piano Variations", which later became his "Variations for Orchestra". If those aren't atonal, then I don't know what the word means! (I played this piece back in undergrad, and it's one of my all-time favorite "atonal" pieces).




Check out his 4th Quartet sometime, then get back to me and see if you still want to stand behind that statement.

Well - I was really objecting and reacting to the phrase :

"Bartok and Copland are ...composers I know of who were leading the way with atonalism."

So - I was trying to put this into context - they might well have had odd works that dabbled, but generally they are known for other stuff.

So - if you go to a decent record shop and look for Copland and Bartok - you will find a lot of CDs - but I doubt you will find any that used atonality...

I would still say that atonality wasn't a primary influence for Bartok, as much as say Stravinsky's works or the folk music of Central Europe - I also hear an influence of Strauss, Lizt and maybe Debussy.

European music in the second half of the 20C was split quite dramatically between those who did nothing but atonal music and those who still incorporated elements of tonality.

So - Stravinsky himself, went completely over to serialism post-Schoenberg, for many years and it seemed to be a kind of intellectual decision.

I think it was quite clear that Bartok was not in the atonal "camp" , in the way some other composers were, after hearing the 2nd Viennese School.

And if we are talking about composers who were "leading the way" with atonal music - then I think it would be better to say Berg and Webern, for example, rather than Bartok and Copland - that's all I was saying...

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by rickbass

> I NEVER SAID Copland was a "pioneer" of atonality.

Well - what you said was :

"Schoenberg, Bartok and Copland are 3 composers I know of who were leading the way with atonalism."

That's what I was objecting to.

[rickbass]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

Well - what you said was :

"Schoenberg, Bartok and Copland are 3 composers I know of who were leading the way with atonalism."

That's what I was objecting to.

Good catch, Bruce.

You're right - my statement, as it is worded, is misleading and inaccurate.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by Howard K

Just a little update, I got some more info from this guy this arvo... his posts weren't at all clear this morning - his explantion of how the tabbed riff was used to create atonal music was spread across several posts...

His (probably pretty scary) metal band take a simple 8th note riff, then repeat the same pattern of intervals starting on a random note each time. So, effectively playing a melody that doesnt have a tonal centre (unless repeated?) and then shifting it to written random start points each bar, to create a long, complex series of notes with no tonal centre and virtually no repetition.

I'm not sure it's appropriate in this case, but generally, music that is randomly-generated is known as "aleatory" ,rather than atonal....?

[Howard K]

Another new word.. my scrabble game is improving by the hour!

In essence tho, what they're doing isnt completely random. They're playing the same symettrical pattern of intervals in different places in the octave, so there is quite a simple structure to what they're doing, it is written and rehearsed... the result is atonal.. as far as I can tell?

Thinking about it tho, someone with a good ear would be able to hear that the same pattern of intervals was being played 'randomly'.

Of course, if they use the same conceptbut over an odd meter, it would be even more difficult to decipher.. and probably even more horrible.

[sixontimber]

Originally Posted by Howard K

Thinking about it tho, someone with a good ear would be able to hear that the same pattern of intervals was being played 'randomly'.

transposition

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by Howard K

Another new word.. my scrabble game is improving by the hour!

In essence tho, what they're doing isnt completely random. They're playing the same symettrical pattern of intervals in different places in the octave, so there is quite a simple structure to what they're doing, it is written and rehearsed... the result is atonal.. as far as I can tell?

Thinking about it tho, someone with a good ear would be able to hear that the same pattern of intervals was being played 'randomly'.

Of course, if they use the same conceptbut over an odd meter, it would be even more difficult to decipher.. and probably even more horrible.

Well, it does have similarities with Schoenberg's concept of serialism - so the idea there, is that you choose a 12 tone "row" - a series of intervals, effectively and you use those notes only in that order, although you can change timbre, dynamics and time - you can't change the order of the row..... ?

Strict serialism would mean those 12 notes were just repeated throughout the piece - although even Schoenberg 'allowed' transformations of the row...

[Zach Edmands]

Atonality in metal usually means that the piece is based on rythmic movement and shifts rather than that of melody. A keen example of this would be Deicide's album, Legion.

[Howard K]

Originally Posted by Zach Edmands

Atonality in metal usually means that the piece is based on rythmic movement and shifts rather than that of melody. A keen example of this would be Deicide's album, Legion.

I thought about this aspect of it. surely, if you take a riff repeated through random tonal centres, then play it over constantly shifting meters, or constantly changing rhythmic accents, the harmony itslf isnt changed, it is still transposition as per sixontimber's post... altho to all intents and purposes I expect it sounds pretty darned atonal!

they guy i was discussing with eventually told me that 'the riff' (he posted an example that was clearly in F minor) was atonal all on it's own and that he'd just finished a diploma at the academy of contemporarey music and that he was right. that was when i quit, i also decided against a course at the aforementioned academy!

[velvetkevorkian]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

I'm not sure it's appropriate in this case, but generally, music that is randomly-generated is known as "aleatory" ,rather than atonal....?

aleatoric, as i understand, would mean that the random element in the music is in the performance rather than in the composition. otherwise surely dodecaphonic (beat that for a good scrabble word )/serialist stuff could be described as aleatoric, since they arranged yer chromatic scale in what could be seen to be a random order

...at least that's what i was taught in school. so yeah, you're probably right!
Kyle