Basic Music Theory Questions

Johnny L · #1 10-06-2003, 12:44 PM

Simple music theory questions with which to impose (thanks in advance for your kindness):

Do 9th and 11th chords assume b7 as part of the chord?
Sus4 chords - does only the second note get raised a half step, or do both the second and third note get raised a half step? If the latter is false does one say, for example, Asus #5 to cover it or would this construction be covered by changing the root and doing the A/whatever?
Dim chords - do min b5 chords always get called dim chords instead?

I never thought much about this music theory stuff before, but I just recently picked up a Hal Leonard fake book and was running though tunes on the piano and enjoying the sound of some chords where the melody helped to spell them out. Its really cool to finally see that kind of stuff.

Johnny L · #2 10-06-2003, 12:59 PM

Well, I know now that you can stack another minor 3rd on a dim chord, and that wouldn't let it be a min b5 chord...could it be a min b5 bb7 chord then?

Josh McNutt · #3 10-06-2003, 05:06 PM

Dim chords are 1, b3, b5, bb7(6). They are symmetrical at the minor third. Min b5 would be a half-diminished chord.

Perplexer · #4 10-07-2003, 12:50 AM

9th and 11th chords are dominant chords with a b7.

In some places you may see a maj9 chord which implies a major 7 chord with a 9 above it. take further to the 13.

in a sus chord, only the second note is raised.
1 4 5 b7.
I tink they call it a sus4 chord because the major 3rd is raised to a 4th.

I can't say I've ever seen a sus#5 chord, maybe because it would be easier to call it a minor 11 chord with a 5th in the bass or something like that.
think of taking the D, making that the root and writing it D-11/A

**Pacman** · #5 10-07-2003, 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Perplexer
I can't say I've ever seen a sus#5 chord, maybe because it would be easier to call it a minor 11 chord with a 5th in the bass or something like that.
think of taking the D, making that the root and writing it D-11/A

Wouldn't it just be a minor chord inverted? In C, you'd have C F and G# (Ab), which would be a 2nd inversion Fm triad...

Johnny L · #6 10-07-2003, 07:04 AM

So do I have it correct if I say a C half-diminished chord would be spelled C,Eb, F, Bb, and a C dim chord would be spelled C,Eb,F,A?

How does one indicate a half-dim chord in a fake book? Would it be an o with a slash, C 1/2dim or something?

With inverted chords - does that get indicated too, or is it a matter of spelling it out somehow with an added note and it's up to the reader to deduce that?

Thanks very much,
Johnny

Bruce Lindfield · #7 10-07-2003, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Johnny L

How does one indicate a half-dim chord in a fake book? Would it be an o with a slash -

Yes

With inverted chords - does that get indicated too, or is it a matter of spelling it out somehow with an added note and it's up to the reader to deduce that?

Often the latter, but sometimes composers will specify a particular inversion by notating it as a slash chord.

**Chris Fitzgerald** · #8 10-07-2003, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JOHNNY L. GOODE
So do I have it correct if I say a C half-diminished chord would be spelled C,Eb, F, Bb, and a C dim chord would be spelled C,Eb,F,A?

If you're being anal about it, you'd spell a half-diminished chord in C as: C, Eb, Gb, Bb. Remember that half-diminished is synonymous with "mi7b5", as these chords used to be called back in the old "illegal Real Book" days (many still use this designation).

A fully diminished 7 chord built on C would contain the same diminished triad as the half-diminished, but the 7th would be lowered an additional half step from a minor 7th to a diminished 7th: C, Eb, Gb, Bbb (A).

How does one indicate a half-dim chord in a fake book? Would it be an o with a slash, C 1/2dim or something?

Typically it's the "O with the slash" thing, but can also be called "mi7b5" without harming anything...just takes a little longer to write.

With inverted chords - does that get indicated too, or is it a matter of spelling it out somehow with an added note and it's up to the reader to deduce that?

Sometimes either or both, depending on who wrote the chart. If an inversion is really intended, it's usually drawn as a "slash chord" i.e. - Cma7/G or whatever. Sometimes, the chord is simply named as if it were built up from the desired root note.

Hope this helps.

Bruce Lindfield · #9 10-07-2003, 10:47 AM

Chris - are you ignoring my posts now?

Johnny L · #10 10-07-2003, 12:08 PM

Thanks for the extremely helpful clarifications. Sorry, I did mean to say C, Eb, Gb and not fall short.

**Chris Fitzgerald** · #11 10-07-2003, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ROGER THE BRUCE
Chris - are you ignoring my posts now?

Now there's a trick question if I ever heard one...isn't that kind of like asking, "Are you asleep?".

The answer is no - I started by answering the spelling question and just got carried away. DOH!

Bruce Lindfield · #12 10-08-2003, 05:27 AM

OK - thanks!

moley · #13 10-08-2003, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Johnny L
Simple music theory questions with which to impose (thanks in advance for your kindness):

Do 9th and 11th chords assume b7 as part of the chord?

If you mean C9, C11 etc, then yes. If it has a 'maj' in it, e.g. Cmaj9, then a major 7th, not a b7 is assumed.

Sus4 chords - does only the second note get raised a half step, or do both the second and third note get raised a half step?

Firstly, I don't think it's such a good idea to call it "second note" and "third note", because there are many voicings for a sus chord (or any chord), and the 3rd and 5th will often not be the 2nd and 3rd notes, respectively. Better to call them the 3rd and the 5th, IMO.

In a sus chord, the 4th usually replaces the 3rd. So C is C E G, and Csus is C F G. The 5th (G) remains unaltered. Note that the 4th doesn't have to replace the 3rd, you can have both notes in there, but in practice the 4th usually replaces the 3rd. Mark Levine defines a sus chord as a dominant 7th chord in which the 4th is not an avoid note.

If the latter is false does one say, for example, Asus #5 to cover it or would this construction be covered by changing the root and doing the A/whatever?

I've never seen sus#5 written, so maybe it's not a good idea. But, as Pac pointed out, this basically turns it into a different chord - in that case, D minor (in second inversion). The #5 is an E#, aka F, so you get A D F, which spells out D minor.

Dim chords - do min b5 chords always get called dim chords instead?

No, a dim chord isn't really the same as a min 5b chord. A diminished triad is the same as a minor triad with a b5, but when you add a 7th they differ because a dim chord will have a bb7 (or 6th) and the min5b chord will have a b7.

dim = 1 b3 b5 bb7
min7b5 a.k.a half-dim = 1 b3 b5 b7

Bruce Lindfield · #14 10-08-2003, 06:52 AM

Hi Moley - nice to see you back and straight into the fray on the harmonic battlefield!!

I haven't seen you around for over a week!

Johnny L · #15 10-08-2003, 07:50 AM

I realized when I went back to the piano yesterday that the chord progressions for the songs I ended up singling out for memorization in the Hal Leonard book(A Train and Funny Valentine) don't have any dim or half-dim chords listed. I'm going to have to find some progressions that have augmented and diminished chords in them. #9 chords are awesome.

Now that I know how a diminished, half-diminished, and suspended chord is spelled, and that sus #5 chords pretty much get written as something else, I would like to impose further and ask about augmented chords.

I know augmented chords stack maj 3rds instead of min 3rds, but can it be stacked like a full dim chord and get spelled B, Eb, G, Bb without any additional info, or would this be something like Baug maj7 instead?

Bruce Lindfield · #16 10-08-2003, 08:03 AM

Bossa Novas use half-diminished chords a lot...or maybe it's just Jobim who does?

moley · #17 10-08-2003, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
Hi Moley - nice to see you back and straight into the fray on the harmonic battlefield!!

I haven't seen you around for over a week!

Hi there Bruce! I haven't been around much, I've been sorta busy lately, Uni's just started back up and I've been doing quite a few shifts at work too.

moley · #18 10-08-2003, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Johnny L
I know augmented chords stack maj 3rds instead of min 3rds, but can it be stacked like a full dim chord and get spelled B, Eb, G, Bb without any additional info, or would this be something like Baug maj7 instead?

Firstly, G to Bb is a minor 3rd not a major 3rd. If you're gonna stack major 3rds, you only get 3 before you repeat yourself, whereas you get 4 with dim chords. So a full diminished chord is 4 notes, whereas a full augmented chord is just 3.

The B Eb G Bb example, I would call Bmaj7(#5) and it'd be spelled B D# Fx A# (x = double sharp).

**Pacman** · #19 10-08-2003, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
Bossa Novas use half-diminished chords a lot...or maybe it's just Jobim who does?

Any tunes in a minor tonality should use a lot of half-diminished chords - it's the ii chord in minor.

Bruce Lindfield · #20 10-08-2003, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Johnny L
I realized when I went back to the piano yesterday that the chord progressions for the songs I ended up singling out for memorization in the Hal Leonard book(A Train and Funny Valentine) don't have any dim or half-dim chords listed

Of course - but I was just suggesting an obvious/easy place to look for some....