Basic Music Theory Questions

[Johnny L]

Thanks and I did mean to say G to Bb. I was just curious to see how it would be spelled and better understand more differences between augmented and diminished chords. I'll see if I can ask for these answers a different way to test my understanding of the augmented and diminished world now:

Bmaj7 #5 - B, Eb, G, Bb
Bmin7 - B, D, Gb, A
B - B, Eb, Gb, B
B dim - B, D, F, Ab
B 1/2dim 7 - B, D, F, A
B aug 7 - B, Eb, G, A
B 13 - B, Eb, Gb, A, Db, F, A
Bmaj13 - B, Eb, Gb, Bb, Db, F, A
Augmented chords are built with the root, maj3rd, maj3rd only. Diminished chords are built with root, min3rd, min3rd, min3rd.

Where am I mistaken?

Thanks for grading, and I apologize in advance for using the key of B rather than something like C...it was designed to help me learn something more.

Johnny

[Perplexer]

Some folks might insist on sharps for B natural.

for 13th chords sometimes it helps to check the extention note by relating it to it's place in the first octave. for example the 9th should be the 2nd an octave higher, the 11th a 4th and 13th a 6th. even more confusing? possibly. but ask if A is the 6th or not.

at this point I just might insist on sharps. yeah, why not.

[Josh McNutt]

And don't forget that augmented chords come from the whole tone scale (usually), so they're normally dominant chords. I typically write them: C7+5.

[Pacman]

Originally posted by Johnny L
Thanks and I did mean to say G to Bb. I was just curious to see how it would be spelled and better understand more differences between augmented and diminished chords. I'll see if I can ask for these answers a different way to test my understanding of the augmented and diminished world now:

Bmaj7 #5 - B, Eb, G, Bb

B maj7#5 = B D# F## A#

Bmin7 - B, D, Gb, A

Bmin7 = B D F# A

B - B, Eb, Gb, B

B = B D# F#

B dim - B, D, F, Ab

correct

B 1/2dim 7 - B, D, F, A
Bm7b5 (half dim) = B D F Ab

B aug 7 - B, Eb, G, A

Baug7 = B D# F## A

B 13 - B, Eb, Gb, A, Db, F, A

B 13 = B D# F# A C# E G#


Bmaj13 - B, Eb, Gb, Bb, Db, F, A

Bmaj13 = B D# F# A# C# E G#

Augmented chords are built with the root, maj3rd, maj3rd only. Diminished chords are built with root, min3rd, min3rd, min3rd.

Where am I mistaken?

Thanks for grading, and I apologize in advance for using the key of B rather than something like C...it was designed to help me learn something more.

Johnny

Mostly, you've got the idea, but remember when spelling chords to use 3rds. When you're using any type of "E" note in the key of B, you're talking about a 4th (Eb in B is a diminished 4th, D# is a major 3rd). Enharmonics don't work when spelling chords.

[Johnny L]

Thanks all for the grading and guidance. I'm editing this because I'm not sure what I said before makes any kind of sense....so here goes again:

The whole 7 and maj7 think kinda messes with me. When I see B7, I want to see maj7 because I understand it to be a major triad with the seventh note of the major scale added...but no, this is Bmaj7. O.K.

So when I see B9, I'm O.K. with the 9th being C# (even rather than Db, since the key of B would be written on the staff with sharps instead of flats). When I see #9 or b9 and listen to the chord against the melody line my ears tell me that 9 is a whole step above the octave anyway. Good enough.

Since I haven't been doing any 11 or 13 chords yet in the Hal Leanoard I haven't been listening or comparing...the F and A was only a guess that 11 and 13 where whole steps up from the octave like 9 seems to be.

Must 9, 11 and 13 correspond to the scale from which the chord is built (whether major, minor, or whatever)? If so, why does 7 not get this treatment?

Thanks again to all very much for helping me with this stuff...it's like I've finally found a key to open the door with.

[Josh McNutt]

Originally posted by Pacman


B 1/2dim 7 - B, D, F, A
Bm7b5 (half dim) = B D F Ab

No man, he had it right the first time. Bm7b5 is the 7th mode of C, which doesn't have an Ab. You spelled a dim chord.

[Pacman]

Dammit! I knew that - stupid mistake....

[Petebass]

Wow this is one hell of a refresher course. I had a lot of this stuff burried by the nature of the styles of music I find myself playing nowdays..... Thanks guys.

[Johnny L]

Now I've got a foundation to work with:
http://www.creativekeyboard.com/nov01/chordtheory.pdf

It's all in C, but I can hear what they're supposed to sound like now and simply transpose.

It talks about the 13th as really being the 6th of the chord, as was offered to me earlier. Guess that makes 11 the 4th and the 9th a 2nd, if I ride with the "stacking of 3rds" reference.

Cool...get this stuff down and then move forward with that chord progression roman numeral stuff...

[moley]

Originally posted by Johnny L
Must 9, 11 and 13 correspond to the scale from which the chord is built (whether major, minor, or whatever)?

They do generally, yes. It's a matter of knowing which scale accompanies each chord. Here's an example, using C:

C, Cmaj7, Cmaj9, C6, C6/9 ... : C Major
C7, C9, C11, C13 : C Mixolydian
C7b9, C7#9 : C Half-Step/Whole-Step Diminished
C7alt, C7b13, C7#5#9 ... : C Altered
Cm7, Cm9, Cm11 ... : C Dorian
Cm7b5 : C Half-Diminished/C Locrian

This is by no means definitive though, different players have their own ideas of which scales go with which chords.

If so, why does 7 not get this treatment?

It does. Dominant 7th chords are built off the mixolydian scale, not major.

[Johnny L]

I guess that's another gap that needs to be closed...thanks for more guidance.

I can't imagine how painful it must be to study this stuff without getting to hear it at the same time.

Found a Mingus song in the Hal book called Pork Pie Hat, in Ab or some key that has 4 flats in it...had to play it a couple of times to get the melody and chord spellings right. Pretty wild, and it ends on an 11 chord too. Kinda fun trying to bring it from out of the paper world without having heard a recording first. That's not my usual approach to learning a song...

[Perplexer]

I love Pork Pie Hat. You should go out and get Mingus Ah Um, and check Mingus's chords against your chart. I know the Real Book(illegal) is in the wrong key, along with the usual other mistakes, so you may be surprised at how different it sounds than Hal's version.

[Josh McNutt]

It's also in the official Mingus fake book.

[Perplexer]

Josh, What key is it in the officail fake book?

[Johnny L]

You probably already know it's F minor in the Hal book after I said 4 flats. Took me a little longer...

What key does Mingus do the song in Ah Um?

[Josh McNutt]

Sorry this took a while--I haven't been paying attention. It's in Eb.