Cherokee Tonal Center Analysis

ejuzek · #1 05-04-2005, 06:41 PM

Hello.... anyone knows where to find a Song Analysis for Cherokee? maybe measure by measure?

Best Regards,

e.c.

**Chris Fitzgerald** · #2 05-04-2005, 08:21 PM

"A" section
I.../..../ii.../V.../IV.../bVII7.../I.../..../VofV.../..../ii.../Vofii/ii.../V
...........(of IV)

(2nd "A")
I.../..../ii.../V.../IV.../bVII7.../I.../..../VofV.../..../ii.../V.../I.../....
...........(of IV)

Bridge
ii.../V.../I.../..../ii.../V.../I.../..../ii.../V.../I.../..../ii.../V.../ii.../V.../
..........(Bma)...............(Ama)..............G ma....(of V)....(back in Bb)

Repeat 2nd A

ejuzek · #3 05-05-2005, 03:47 PM

Chris:

Thanks....

e.c.

**Chris Fitzgerald** · #4 05-05-2005, 09:32 PM

You are most welcome.

Ed Fuqua · #5 05-06-2005, 09:15 AM

Innit sposta be ii of IV and V of IV? I think I hit a iv after IV, too...

**Chris Fitzgerald** · #6 05-06-2005, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

Innit sposta be ii of IV and V of IV? I think I hit a iv after IV, too...

I meant "ii-V of IV". As to the minor iv, I know folks argue about this, but to me, the "iv" and the "bVII7" are really the the same basic function in the same way that "ii" and "V" are basically the same function, kinda extended-like.

anonymous0726 · #7 05-06-2005, 01:06 PM

I treat these movements as a key change into lydian in the key of IV usually. It IS a little messy trying to show students this as the difference is pretty subtle between this and the second four bars of Rhythm:

I I7 | IV #IVo | I/V VI | II V

-> I don't mess around with capital and lower case Roman numerals, instead using chord notation with all caps. I feel that this helps properly introduce the ambiguity that is inherent in the way that jazz players treat chord progressions....

Ed Fuqua · #8 05-06-2005, 01:22 PM

I don't think you meant what I thought you said.

anonymous0726 · #9 05-06-2005, 01:36 PM

I think I think I meant to say what I think I thought I was thinking that I thought I said.

Whew.

Ahnyhow, in a tune that is built like the A section of Cherokee:

Bb | F-7 Bb7 | Eb | Eb-7 Ab

I treat F-7 Bb7 Eb often as a key change, and lydian, so that we are now in the key of Eb Lydian (if you can say it like that). It is also an option, and perhaps even more common, to just go to the key of Eb major. The Eb-7 Ab I treat as a short diversion into Db.

**Chris Fitzgerald** · #10 05-06-2005, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray Parker

I think I think I meant to say what I think I thought I was thinking that I thought I said.

Whew.

Ahnyhow, in a tune that is built like the A section of Cherokee:

Bb | F-7 Bb7 | Eb | Eb-7 Ab

I treat F-7 Bb7 Eb often as a key change, and lydian, so that we are now in the key of Eb Lydian (if you can say it like that). It is also an option, and perhaps even more common, to just go to the key of Eb major. The Eb-7 Ab I treat as a short diversion into Db.

I never thought of it like that! I just think of the Eb- as an example of mode mixture in Bb, same as the Ab7. To my ear, the tunes like Cherokee, Joy Spring, etc. that use that minor iv sound are just "darkening into the parallel minor" for minute and coming back, like a bigassed cloud passing over the harmony and then going away. Then again, that's why everybody's ears are shaped different.

anonymous0726 · #11 05-06-2005, 03:13 PM

I hear it that way as well, usually. Unless the four minor is in a cadence resolving at the tonic, in which case it acts like a V7alt. (parallel V7 from the minor key).

The diversion into Db that I mention above is the most obvious chord-scale palette, is what I was really getting at.

**Chris Fitzgerald** · #12 05-06-2005, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray Parker

The diversion into Db that I mention above is the most obvious chord-scale palette, is what I was really getting at.

...and Db is the relative major of Bbmi, which is where I hear the mode mixture going for a minute. Semantics!

anonymous0726 · #13 05-07-2005, 01:05 AM

Having that Db trick in your pocket makes all of the notes immediately fall into your hands. With parallel Bb- you have one extra layer of cipherin' to get the notes you want.

I guess my interperation of some common harmonic devices (as far as mechanics) stem from the fingering work that I've done on the bass. I base all of my fingerings from the major scale, and so knowing the root (Ionian) scale that is the basis of a chord or progression will put that key under your hands with ease.

Another wierd thing that I do is when playing with melodic minor ideas I base my fingerings on the lydian dominant chord -- 4th mode of the melodic minor. So, when the rest of the world sees a BbMaj (#5) or D/Bb, they play Gmm and I play C7#11

**Chris Fitzgerald** · #14 05-07-2005, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray Parker

Having that Db trick in your pocket makes all of the notes immediately fall into your hands. With parallel Bb- you have one extra layer of cipherin' to get the notes you want.

Totally off topic for this thread, but since Juzek already got his analysis...

Clearly, no one way is right for everyone...your "one less layer of cipherin' " is my "one more layer of cipherin'".

One of the things I always try to do when possible is to relate what's going one to the home key of the tune, since I think the home key is always present in the ear, even if only subliminally. As far as Bbmi/DbMa, it easier for me to "darken" BbMa by flatting 3, 6, and 7 than to modulate. But then I'm dyslexic and am sometimes unable to grasp certain ways of doing things. At any rate, it's interesting to hear how other players approach these things.

Dyslexics of the world, UNTIE!

Don Higdon · #15 05-09-2005, 06:46 PM

I used to do the Confirmation run on the first 4 bars of Cherokee. Then I heard a guy do it this way:

BbM---/F+5---/Fm11---/Bb7(-9)---/

I love the augmented; it gives a distinctive flavor and sets up descending thirds inside. My big surprise was finding this was the original line. This has happened on alot of tunes. Ross Tomkins is one of those guys who does not play the de riguer substitutions on Can't Get Started (neither does Michael Moore) or These Foolish Things.

nypiano · #16 05-11-2005, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

...and Db is the relative major of Bbmi, which is where I hear the mode mixture going for a minute. Semantics!

I agree with Chris that IVminor and bVII7 dominant are really the same thing. Because you find these 3rd apart equivalent progressions so much:

Eb-(6) - D-7 in Bb (ivm- III)
Ab7(b5) -Bb (bVII- I)

However I think that in terms of function, Ab7 to Bb is an example of "modal" borrowing from the tonic minor not any other reference point. Although Db is relative major of Bbminor and Eb chord is lydian in Bb, I think that would be hearing those areas in isolation from the tonic Bb. In other words you are bringing in Bbminor tonality into Bbmaj by introducing IVminor from Bb-. You then undo it when you arrive on Bbmajor. In fact the inevitable preference for Ab7b5 on bVII7 in particular points to this hint of minor on Eb-7 but dovetailing back to Bbmajor upon Ab7b5. The Eb-7 Ab7 just doesn't suggest Db to me

It's basically the same concept as introducing the minor II-V half diminished or phyrgian dominant (V7susb9) harmony. For example C-7b5 F7b9etc to Bbmaj. Again this progression is roughly parallel to eb-7 ab7. This also explains the diminished tendency of ivdim to go to III or I as well. Eb-6 to Ebo (to D-or Bb) is the same thing as C-7b5 F7b9 over Eb pedal.