Circle of Fourths

[dar512]

This will be a yawner to experienced musicians, I expect, but I found it kind of cool.

My instructor had asked me to work on the circle of fourths, so during a boring meeting, I started trying to write it down from memory. I just happened to write it down all in naturals and flats when I was struck at how regular it is. Makes sense in retrospect, but look at how easy it is to memorize when laid out like this:

B E A D G - C F - Bb Eb Ab Db Gb

If you can remember BEADG, you've got it all down.

And remember that the circle of fifths is just the same thing backwards.

Also remember that the number of sharps and flats in a key gets larger the farther you move away from C.

I thought it was pretty cool anyway.

[Holly Wright]

Call me inexperienced, but in music theory level and what I have done this year of AP, we only learned the circle of fifths, what is the circle of fourths?

[reedo35]

circle of fifths is by #'s i.e., C(0),G(F#),D(f#,C#),A(F,C,G#),
E(F,C,G,D#),B(F,C,G,D,A#),F#,C#
Circle of 4th's is by b's, F(Bb), Bb,(Bb,Eb),Eb,(Bb,Eb,Ab),and so on...

[sibass89]

Originally Posted by dar512

This will be a yawner to experienced musicians, I expect, but I found it kind of cool.

My instructor had asked me to work on the circle of fourths, so during a boring meeting, I started trying to write it down from memory. I just happened to write it down all in naturals and flats when I was struck at how regular it is. Makes sense in retrospect, but look at how easy it is to memorize when laid out like this:

B E A D G - C F - Bb Eb Ab Db Gb

If you can remember BEADG, you've got it all down.

And remember that the circle of fifths is just the same thing backwards.

Also remember that the number of sharps and flats in a key gets larger the farther you move away from C.

I thought it was pretty cool anyway.

This kind of ruins the whole point of the circle of fifths. The circle of fifths is a way to organize key signature in tonal music. So that as you go around to the right you add a sharp for each note and around to the left you add a flat for each note. Starting on B, kind of reverses the system, and although it works it is unorganized.

You would be best off memorizing it from C -G - D- A - E - B - F# - D#

and

C- F- Bb - Eb - Ab - Db - Gb and just lining up the enharmonic structures.

[dar512]

Originally Posted by sibass89

Starting on B, kind of reverses the system, and although it works it is unorganized.

I don't see the problem. It's a circle. So you can start anywhere - and should be able to. It's just another way of looking at the same information. In the above, going to the right from C adds flats, going to the left adds sharps.

Originally Posted by sibass89

You would be best off memorizing it from C -G - D- A - E - B - F# - D#

and

C- F- Bb - Eb - Ab - Db - Gb and just lining up the enharmonic structures.

Well, see, that's what I liked about the above described way. No memorization was needed.

If this way of learning it bothers you, then it's obviously not for you. In my case, my instructor happens to think that learning the fourths is more important for jazz than learning the fifths. Keeping in mind, of course that the fifths is the same circle just going in the opposite direction.

In any case, it helped me.

[dar512]

Originally Posted by Holly Wright

Call me inexperienced, but in music theory level and what I have done this year of AP, we only learned the circle of fifths, what is the circle of fourths?

I'm assuming you know about intervals. In the circle of fifths, each note is a fifth above the previous one. G is a fifth above C. D is a fifth above G, and so on. If you keep going you get back to where you started.

The circle of fourths is pretty much the same thing. F is a fourth above C. Bb is a fourth above F. And again you will get back to where you started.

Now what's the relationship between C & G? The correct answer depends on where you started from (among other things). G is a fifth above C. But C is a fourth above G.

So the circle of fourths and the circle of fifths are the same circle. It just depends on what order you put them down and what order you look at them. Going clockwise will give you one and counterclockwise will give you the other.

[sibass89]

Originally Posted by dar512

I don't see the problem. It's a circle. So you can start anywhere - and should be able to. It's just another way of looking at the same information. In the above, going to the right from C adds flats, going to the left adds sharps.

Well, see, that's what I liked about the above described way. No memorization was needed.

If this way of learning it bothers you, then it's obviously not for you. In my case, my instructor happens to think that learning the fourths is more important for jazz than learning the fifths. Keeping in mind, of course that the fifths is the same circle just going in the opposite direction.

In any case, it helped me.

Okay and it handles the scales from B - C, but what about F# and Enharmonic equivalences. I'm just saying it takes away the organized structure by starting on the scale with 5 sharps and working your way down, instead of starting on C and working up.

The circle of 4ths and 5ths is the exact same thing. So if you're teacher said learn the circle of 4ths its the same thing just looking at it in another direction. You just read it counterclockwise instead of clockwise.

[PsionAxis]

Originally Posted by sibass89

The circle of 4ths and 5ths is the exact same thing. So if you're teacher said learn the circle of 4ths its the same thing just looking at it in another direction. You just read it counterclockwise instead of clockwise.

Yeah thats basically a decent summary, Most people read it the Circle of 5ths and call the other direction "The Order of Flats". Being a bass player,(as im sure you already know) The order of flats is essential because thats what your bass is tuned to! Haha. I have a seven string electric bass and guess what its tuning is? B E A D G C F, well bly me! Thats the order of flats.

I guess the bottom line is, this, you were a bit confused because you didnt see much a difference between clockwise and counter clockwise. Thats because you most likely havent studied inverted intervals yet. When you understand the rule of Nine and that a perfect 5th inverted becomes a perfect 4th, you will then understand why the circle of fifths can be read two different ways. Well I guess im being a little dramatic, you probably already know that but were asking a different question. I only skimmed this thread, but anyways, intervals are important in the circle of fifths, important in understanding that clockwise/counterclockwise interpretation and knowing your relative minors like the back of your hand!

Cool thread in the theory forum!

I hope this helped.

[PJEBassist]

Guys, this is wayy to complicated.

Going around the circle clockwise is the circle of fifths.

Thanks to interval inversion, going around the circle counter-clockwise is the circle of fourths.

We all know about fifths (C-G-D-A-E-B-F#-C#-Ab-Eb-Bb-F) but fourths, thirds, sixths, and sevenths all do the the same thing.

That circle of fifths is amazing. The more you look at music the more cyclic you'll find it to be. Circle progressions anyone?

-Jake

[dar512]

Originally Posted by dar512

Keeping in mind, of course that the fifths is the same circle just going in the opposite direction.

Originally Posted by sibass89

So if you're teacher said learn the circle of 4ths its the same thing just looking at it in another direction. You just read it counterclockwise instead of clockwise.

Are you reading what I'm writing?

Originally Posted by sibass89

Okay and it handles the scales from B - C, but what about F# and Enharmonic equivalences.

What about them? I don't have any trouble remembering that F#=Gb, for instance.

I'll reiterate. The thing I posted is just a little thing to make it easier to remember the fourths and fifths relationships. It works for me.

Pardon him Thodotus: he is a barbarian, and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature.

[sibass89]

Originally Posted by dar512

Are you reading what I'm writing?

What about them? I don't have any trouble remembering that F#=Gb, for instance.

I'll reiterate. The thing I posted is just a little thing to make it easier to remember the fourths and fifths relationships. It works for me.

Pardon him Thodotus: he is a barbarian, and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature.

What I was saying is that your system for remembering things leaves out parts of the Circle of 4ths, 5th or whatever you call it. Therefore its not a great system for remembering things if you only include 5 of the sharp keys and 5 of the flat keys. You're still missing a key signature.

[mcnaire2004]

Originally Posted by sibass89

What I was saying is that your system for remembering things leaves out parts of the Circle of 4ths, 5th or whatever you call it. Therefore its not a great system for remembering things if you only include 5 of the sharp keys and 5 of the flat keys. You're still missing a key signature.

There is another Key signature.

I'm asking if your not talking about C

[sibass89]

F#/Gb

Although you know that there is F#/Gb,it is not a ligitimate system is what I'm saying.

[mcnaire2004]

Originally Posted by sibass89

F#/Gb

Although you know that there is F#/Gb,it is not a ligitimate system is what I'm saying.

There is a F# major? I know there is a minor. Same with Gb.

I have never heard of this. What are the #s and bs?

[sibass89]

F# Major is 6 sharps - F#, C#, G#, D#, A#, E#

There is also C# which is everything sharp.

Gb Major is same with 6 flats
Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, Cb

And Cb Major has everything flat.

[dar512]

Originally Posted by sibass89

What I was saying is that your system for remembering things leaves out parts of the Circle of 4ths, 5th or whatever you call it. Therefore its not a great system for remembering things if you only include 5 of the sharp keys and 5 of the flat keys. You're still missing a key signature.

Depends on one's needs I guess - and whether you are better at learning things by rote or by understanding the relationships. I know that there is some overlap at the bottom of the circle. And I know there are such pieces out there, but I've never run into them in the jazz and folk I do. If and when I do, I won't regret the couple of seconds extra thought it will take me to figure it out.

In any case, I didn't learn the circle to figure out key signatures. That's just a happy side benefit.

As to its legitimacy (note proper spelling) - just because it doesn't look the way they taught you at college, doesn't mean it isn't useful.

[fingers]

This kind of discussion happens every time people try to explain how they think about music. Learn it, put it in your memory banks and forget about it. Everybody has their own way of systematizing or not systematizing music to further their understanding of how music works. The way I look it there is no right or wrong as long as the end result is an increased ability to play and understand music.

[lowEndRick]

It is not my intention to hijack this thread but I have a question that I hope is relevant to this discussion:

I get the whole circle of fifths or circle of fourths thing. I can tell you the whole circle clockwise or counterclockwise off the top of my head.

So, where I have trouble is in application. Can someone give me an example of a common circle of fifths (or fourths) progression? I want to see how the concept is actually applied to a real tune. Mind you, I have played lots of tunes with people who have said "Oh yeah thats just a circle of fifths thing". Usually I can see how part of the song relates to this concept, but not the whole tune, I think. Obviously I have some gaps in my knowledge.

Thanks!

[sibass89]

I'm not a jazz player, but as a classical guy it comes in handy when analyzing tonal music. Very often composers such as Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, and later on even Bartok and Ravel (his neoclassic stuff) modulate or move around through the circle of 5ths. I wish i had PDFs of all these examples to show you. But it definately comes in handy when analyzing music with secondary dominants all over the place and in the middle of modulations.

[PsionAxis]

Originally Posted by sibass89

I'm not a jazz player, but as a classical guy it comes in handy when analyzing tonal music. Very often composers such as Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, and later on even Bartok and Ravel (his neoclassic stuff) modulate or move around through the circle of 5ths. I wish i had PDFs of all these examples to show you. But it definately comes in handy when analyzing music with secondary dominants all over the place and in the middle of modulations.

Right on man, I know the feeling, as a Theory and Composition student, and as a bass player, classical and jazz, I am analyzing all the time, and you have to have inversions and the circle ingrained in your head or else it will take you an eternity to make some kind of sense out of half these pieces, much less understand other people's perspective on them.

The secondary dominants and modulations are all over Jazz tunes, all those Dominant chords you see are the five of something, thats why most dude analyze jazz tunes backwards, so they can trace back the long list of dominant chords that eventually leads back to the original key.

As far as modulating goes, the dominant is the easiest to go to, many pianists can modulate any folk tune all the way through the circle of 5ths moving to the dominant tone of the present key they are in.