Circle of Fourths

[lowEndRick]

Originally Posted by lowEndRick

......Can someone give me an example of a common circle of fifths (or fourths) progression? I want to see how the concept is actually applied to a real tune. Mind you, I have played lots of tunes with people who have said "Oh yeah thats just a circle of fifths thing". Usually I can see how part of the song relates to this concept, but not the whole tune, I think. Obviously I have some gaps in my knowledge.

Thanks!

I've posted a similar question on several forums. No one ever seems to answer this question.

[Zachmozach]

Look at the bridge on rythym changes tunes. In Bb you'll have D7 then G7 Then C7 then F7. That right there is circle of fifths. Anytime you have root movement that goes up a fourth or down a fourth contiually you have a circle of fifths thing.

[lowEndRick]

Originally Posted by Zachmozach

Look at the bridge on rythym changes tunes. In Bb you'll have D7 then G7 Then C7 then F7. That right there is circle of fifths. Anytime you have root movement that goes up a fourth or down a fourth contiually you have a circle of fifths thing.

So, in this example in the key of Bb the bridge jumps to a D7 which is the 3rd of the scale in Bb. Why the 3rd? I have seen other examples where it jumps to the 6th. I don't get that relationship.

[Zachmozach]

I guess you'd have to take up with Gershwin the why the 3rd question. Basically it's a III VI II V then of course back to I. As with most things in music you can look at it a lot of ways. You could just see it as tonicizing, since it really is just a III VI II V, but then again you could have an idea like this following one.

C#min, F#7, BMaj, Bmin, E7, Amaj, Amin, D7, Gmaj, etc.

You might notice it's the bridge to cherokee. Every time there is a chord change it is going up a fourth (which is the most common progression in music) except for when you are using a borrowed chord as a pivot to modulate. Like Bmaj to Bmin, you are taking the I chord from Bmaj, using a Bmin as a borrowed chord from the paralell minor key and then having that become the ii chord in the key of A. Now you could just play every chord as a V7. C#7, F#7, B7, E7, A7, D7, G7, and it's still circle of fifths eventually getting you back to the actuall key of Bb. This time it starts on a biii chord though or a borrowed chord from the parrelell minor (Bb min) which is Db min. So anytime you have a progression of up 4 then you have a circle of fourths idea which is why it's good to practice walking the circle in lots of different ways. Oh and since most progressions are up 4 you can do this for most tunes.

[JohnBarr]

Well DAR here's another step around the circle:

if you're trying to remember which notes are shaped or flatted in the keys, take another look at the circle, identify which notes are shaped or flatted and look back at the circle. See another pattern? in reverse?

Dunno how long I looked at that till it jumped out at me.

If you look at the circle and pencil in the 6th of each key (the relative minor) you'll see another pattern.

Here's another hint: 1473625 (think of it as phone number 147-3625). It's the circle --for example, say 1=C, then 2=F ... , or backward: G=5, D=2). Look at the chord progressions in some fairly simple songs (especially the bridge) and compare them to that sequence then compare the sequence to the circle.... It can even help puzzeling out some of the simple substitutions. --That sequence can also help you with the logic of the fretboard.

I guess one thing I took away from the circle is just how structured our current form of western music is. We all knew that of course, but seeing the relationships really brings it home. And helps to understand when the "rules" have been broken.

[billyfalconer]

Originally Posted by lowEndRick

So, where I have trouble is in application. Can someone give me an example of a common circle of fifths (or fourths) progression? I want to see how the concept is actually applied to a real tune.

"Fly Me to the Moon" and "All the Things You Are" leap to mind, but probably half the standards in the Real Book use that basic progression. To me, the interesting things about the stardards are the one or two changes per tune that don't follow the circle.

Also, I have to admit that I never thought I'd see people seriously argue about whether to call it a circle of fifths vs. fourths.

[lowEndRick]

Originally Posted by billyfalconer

....To me, the interesting things about the stardards are the one or two changes per tune that don't follow the circle.....

See, to me, thats the puzzling part. I'd like to know what the relationship is with the chords that don't follow the circle. I thought perhaps there was a formula, but I have yet to find any.

[JohnBarr]

Originally Posted by lowEndRick

See, to me, thats the puzzling part. I'd like to know what the relationship is with the chords that don't follow the circle. I thought perhaps there was a formula, but I have yet to find any.

I don't know many of the conventions but there are a couple with respect to jazz that I've learned.

In the B section it's not uncommon to see a 2-5-1 slipped in. The song may go into another key for a couple bars at that point. Also, if you look a the notes in the scale and take the 5th of any one of them, you may find a quick movement from the 5th inserted. So in C you might see a movement from A to D (D being a tone in C and A=5th of D) or D to G.
So one trick to puzzeling the movement out is to look at the chord following the one that has you stumped. Chances are it's a 5th of one of the chords in the scale.
.-- Do a Google on "secondary dominant".


Also, there are some standard minor substitutions, for example, where you might find a 1 chord the 3rd or 6th may be standing in; for the 4 chord the 2 or the 6 may be substituted. That happens quite a bit in pop tunes.
Try subbing in a minor 3rd over a 1 chord sometime. Sounds different, but not out of key.


If you look at a lead sheet and the key signature is F and the first few bars are in D minor or the chords generally resolve to Dm, your looking at the relative minor (6th) of F and for all intents and purposes the song is in D minor.

[jallenbass]

There's as Jerry Coker book called Hearin' the Changes that explains a lot of this stuff. It's available through Jamey Aebersold.

[rprowse]

Originally Posted by lowEndRick

It is not my intention to hijack this thread but I have a question that I hope is relevant to this discussion:

I get the whole circle of fifths or circle of fourths thing. I can tell you the whole circle clockwise or counterclockwise off the top of my head.

So, where I have trouble is in application. Can someone give me an example of a common circle of fifths (or fourths) progression? I want to see how the concept is actually applied to a real tune. Mind you, I have played lots of tunes with people who have said "Oh yeah thats just a circle of fifths thing". Usually I can see how part of the song relates to this concept, but not the whole tune, I think. Obviously I have some gaps in my knowledge.

Thanks!

Cycle of 4ths:
Autumn Leaves Key Gm. (1st 8 bars.)
Cm7 F7 Bbmaj7 Ebmaj7.
Am7b5 D7b9 Gm Gm.
(Obviously there are breaks in the cycle... it is music, not maths)

[hdiddy]

Originally Posted by WAILINBASS

There's as Jerry Coker book called Hearin' the Changes that explains a lot of this stuff. It's available through Jamey Aebersold.

+1. Awesome book if you're not familiar with the common progressions/substitutions. Def. worth the $$.

[Ben Rolston]

Originally Posted by dar512

This will be a yawner to experienced musicians, I expect, but I found it kind of cool.

My instructor had asked me to work on the circle of fourths, so during a boring meeting, I started trying to write it down from memory. I just happened to write it down all in naturals and flats when I was struck at how regular it is. Makes sense in retrospect, but look at how easy it is to memorize when laid out like this:

B E A D G - C F - Bb Eb Ab Db Gb

If you can remember BEADG, you've got it all down.

And remember that the circle of fifths is just the same thing backwards.

Also remember that the number of sharps and flats in a key gets larger the farther you move away from C.

I thought it was pretty cool anyway.

It is kind of cool to think of it that way, but unfortunately it is-like other people were saying not the correct way of thinking about it. The problem is the way the keys of created:

Think about it in terms of number of sharps or flats. What key has no sharps or flats? Key of C of course, so that is the key on which you start the circle. Next, what key has 1 flat? F, 2 flats, Bb, 3 flats, Eb and so on. This is why it is important when memorizing the circles to go in this order. The same thing applies to how one should say the flat/sharps in a key, you name them following the additions of flats/sharps through the circle. The pattern is cool, but functionally no so great.

[Ben Rolston]

Originally Posted by rprowse

Cycle of 4ths:
Autumn Leaves Key Gm. (1st 8 bars.)
Cm7 F7 Bbmaj7 Ebmaj7.
Am7b5 D7b9 Gm Gm.
(Obviously there are breaks in the cycle... it is music, not maths)

Kind of, but I have been taught that the first four bars is just a progression in the relative major from G minor, Bb major (they each have the same notes= relative keys). So its a II V I IV (also I've sometimes seen the Eb as a +4 which truly makes it the four chord of Bb). The most interesting thing about this progression is that its all the same notes for every chord, just different modes. From Bb they are Dorian, Mixolydian, Ionian, Lydian, Locrian, Phrygian and Aeolian. But the tonal center is Gmin.

I think this is all right, but maybe not.

[lowEndRick]

Originally Posted by rprowse

Cycle of 4ths:
Autumn Leaves Key Gm. (1st 8 bars.)
Cm7 F7 Bbmaj7 Ebmaj7.
Am7b5 D7b9 Gm Gm.
(Obviously there are breaks in the cycle... it is music, not maths)

thanks rprowse. that helps.

[lowEndRick]

Originally Posted by JohnBarr

I don't know many of the conventions but there are a couple with respect to jazz that I've learned.

In the B section it's not uncommon to see a 2-5-1 slipped in. The song may go into another key for a couple bars at that point. Also, if you look a the notes in the scale and take the 5th of any one of them, you may find a quick movement from the 5th inserted. So in C you might see a movement from A to D (D being a tone in C and A=5th of D) or D to G.
So one trick to puzzeling the movement out is to look at the chord following the one that has you stumped. Chances are it's a 5th of one of the chords in the scale.
.-- Do a Google on "secondary dominant".


Also, there are some standard minor substitutions, for example, where you might find a 1 chord the 3rd or 6th may be standing in; for the 4 chord the 2 or the 6 may be substituted. That happens quite a bit in pop tunes.
Try subbing in a minor 3rd over a 1 chord sometime. Sounds different, but not out of key.


If you look at a lead sheet and the key signature is F and the first few bars are in D minor or the chords generally resolve to Dm, your looking at the relative minor (6th) of F and for all intents and purposes the song is in D minor.

Thanks John. Thats the first explanation that I've received that seems to address my question. I guess there is no formula and I will have to make my peace with that. As someone quoted above, "Its music, not math"!

[dar512]

Originally Posted by lowEndRick

It is not my intention to hijack this thread but I have a question that I hope is relevant to this discussion:

I get the whole circle of fifths or circle of fourths thing. I can tell you the whole circle clockwise or counterclockwise off the top of my head.

So, where I have trouble is in application. Can someone give me an example of a common circle of fifths (or fourths) progression? I want to see how the concept is actually applied to a real tune. Mind you, I have played lots of tunes with people who have said "Oh yeah thats just a circle of fifths thing". Usually I can see how part of the song relates to this concept, but not the whole tune, I think. Obviously I have some gaps in my knowledge.

Thanks!

Many of the common jazz cliches have roots that move in fourths. ii-V7-I (for instance) moves Dm-G7-C (in C). D, G, C is a progression of fourths.

[Mark Perry]

I like the way theres so much more patterns in the cycle than just movement in 4ths or 5ths. Anyone noticed that the range from the fourth of a key centre to about five 5ths in the other direction make up all the notes in that major key? That probably made no sense. In C: F,C, G, D, A, E, B
I found that quite interesting. Also:
C as Dorian mode in Bb: Eb, Bb, F, C, G, D, A
Phrygian mode in Ab: Db, Ab, Eb, Bb, F, C, G
Lydian mode in G: C, G, D, A, E, B, F#
Mixolydian mode in F: Bb, F, C, G, D, A, E,
Aeolian mode in Eb: Ab, Eb, Bb, F, C, G, D
Locrian in Db: Gb, Db, Ab, Eb, Bb, F, C

[MonetBass]

Originally Posted by dar512

Many of the common jazz cliches have roots that move in fourths. ii-V7-I (for instance) moves Dm-G7-C (in C). D, G, C is a progression of fourths.

Actually it is math (to an extent), and you gave a great example. If you're in C and you see that progression (Dm-G7-C), it is ii-V7-I as you stated. However if you see D(7)-G7-C, that would be II(V of V)-V7-I. Yes it progresses in 4ths, but with most classical composers their intent was to go by 5ths in reverse. To stretch it out: B-E-A-D-G-C, which would be VII(V of V of V of V of V)-III(V of V of V of V)-VI(V of V of V)-II(V of V)-V-I. 5ths in reverse in order to end up at the original tonic.