The different ways of approaching Improvisation..

[Damon Rondeau]

I didn't know Nome even had a downtown, but I doubt any of those guys lived there.

[suraci]

Originally Posted by damonsmith

Whether or not they used a metronome they all spent years playing with great players with incredible time. If you are not able to do that the metronome is a good tool.
I wouldn't advocate using it all the time or as any sort of crutch but it is NOTHING to be so afraid of.

If you don't even have a soundfile, that is going to mean you don't have any comercially available recordings - you are arguing with guys who do.

HOW or WHY did "those guys" happen to play with incredible time and swing feel?
"If you are honest", you likely suspect that they did NOT use a gnome to improve their swing.
I suspect that metrognome worked its way into academia thanks to Lennie Tristano. I have faint recall of him being one of the principal cats in this regard .
As far as my position vs the metronome camp, where some among the "use metronome" camp happened to have publically available soundfiles.
That suggests a urination contest
But it does not address the raw talent aspect
In any case I have a few recordings in the real world
Nothing I am crazy about... I prefer to not publicize them here
But if pushed. I would do it except I don't know how to translate a recording over to a forum!

I am not afraid of the Gnome
I was among the first wave of studio ( albeit a third stringer ) musicians who recorded with click tracks when they were first introduced in the early to mid 70's.

If I were "you", I would try mike longo's approach AND moderate use of the metronome, to play it safe

[Ed Fuqua]

Suspect all you want, your lack of any real information on the subject is laughable. Louis does not speak specifically about what his course of study entailed, but he does talk about the life changing event of "being given a trumpet and being put in music classes" by the family that took him in just after his childhood arrest. Lil Hardin had a background in classical piano training, in fact this is a area VERY well covered in the Bursalis Tragedy. The changing race laws in Louisiana brought HORDES of classically trained musicians into the "popular" music realm in the late 19th and earlt 20th century. Both Pres and his brother Lee practiced with both metronome and etude book under the tutelage of their father in the family band that they came up with, likewise Oscar Pettiford. Most of the Chicago players in the late 20s and early thirties came up under the baton of Walter Dyett, a bandleader in the Chicago school system, again with a regimen of etude book and metronome.
Ray Brown studied with Rheinsagen, there's a nice interview with Bird where he talks about studying with Buster Smith at the resorts, playing out of etude books with the metronome.
There's about 20 hours of tape of Brownie practicing with a metronome (like Pops, he recorded almost all of his practicing).

I can keep going, but it's pointless.

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by suraci

"If you are honest", you likely suspect that they did NOT use a gnome to improve their swing.

Swing or any time feel is probably best improved by playing in context. However, no serious work can get done on rhythms without a strong sense of time.

Hopefully, you understand that time and rhythm are separate but related issues.
Obviously, if someone just uses the metronome until they can stiffly play along with it, that is not good - but that is step one. There is a whole world of work you can get done with an accurate pulse playing whether by metronome or other reliable source.

[mflaherty]

Ed,
I enjoyed the recordings. Great swing.

Originally Posted by suraci

My question remains unanswered
What role did metronome play aiding groove or steadiness in Bachs Ravels Louis armstrongs Basies ray browns red garlands birds dizzy s life?

Eugene Lehner, who had been the violist in the Kolish Quartet, told me (Sharan) an interesting story about Ravel. The ensemble was to play Ravel’s quartet at a gathering that the composer would be attending. They worked with a vengeance, making good use of the metronome. (Ravel marked his scores very carefully – with metronome markings for every section. The tempo can change frequently… several times on each page.) At the performance they hadn’t played through more than one page before Ravel came up and stopped them. He insisted on shaking each player by the hand, saying it was the first time he had heard the piece played properly. This story and many other things we know about Ravel make it clear that he was serious about his meticulous score markings. They are an essential part of the interpretation process, providing an excellent way to get to the heart of his music.

Favorite Musicians « Gramercy Trio

[GrowlerBox]

Thanks, Ed -- I love good bass & piano duets. You just leave your hands right where they are!

Looks like the "unanswered question" has been answered in spades.

So, how 'bout those different ways of approaching improvisation ... ?

[suraci]

Metronome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There ARE at least two sides to every story

The Ravel story makes sense to me
Where the device is used in the manner for which it was deviced.

For steady and intense grooves , these are some of my favorites
EWFire, James Brown, Eddie Palmeri, Tito Puente,
Bernard Purdie, Oscar w Ray B, Art Blakey, Jaco,
Paul Jackson, Rick Marotta, early Tower of Power, Basie
To name a few.
I doubt if this two sided question leans in the direction of heavy reliance on the metronome. I believe the majority of the most swinging musicians of the 20th century, did not rely on the metronome very heavily if at all.
Just because players used simandl and arbans bibles where of course classical music metro markings were present - does not translate to ray brown slavishly depending on his metronome . Read the whole wiki article on pro and cons of metronome use.
My experience with all kinds of players suggests that some are metronome users much more than others .
The end result of being a bass player is being part of a synergistic team
Where metronomic time is NOT the goal
Steady time does not have to be metronomic. It can be fairly close but still NOT metronomic.

[transition]

How many times has it been said that the goal of studying with a metronome is not to develop metronomic time?

This straw man has been so thoroughly beaten that it might be worth taking some time to restuff him before resuming.

[suraci]

Transition. Then might you restate what the goal is?

I just now asked a friend of mine who played with a devotee of the metronome
What he thought of that player
His response was helpful
He said when you play with said player - you are playing with HIM ( this player who is a dedicated metronome player is a jazz drummer ), not the other way around. When he said that to me, I quickly recalled my experience with another drummer who once informed me that 'he practices with a metronome ... Yada yada and his time is whatever '
This drummer ( the second drummer I just brought up ) was ANYTHING but a swinger.. He was very very unyielding. AND what you got to play off of, his feel, or groove, was NOT swinging . Who knows if it was metronomic , it did not matter
It took me a good while to realize how rigid he was, and the only solution was to follow him MOST of the time. When I followed him, it was just ok. It never burns, just tepidity.
This is because following someone who believes his time is metronomic destroys synegy
It is very similar to playing with a click track.

My first friend that I brought up had terrific groove. Having played with 1st tier players
On occasion.
I love his time feel and ability to swing

He also teaches so I asked him about metronome
He said he advices his students to USE the metronome IF THEY HAVE TIME ISSUES
I then asked him if he thought I ought to and he said no.
So it is a matter of development whether to use one or not.
But as soon as you find that you can groove with the groove players of your circle. Why bother ?

[suraci]

Don’t Use a Metronome « Adam Rafferty – Guitar and Spirit
I am sure you devotees of heavy metronome use are modern guys and ladies and are therefore open minded to views other than your own familiar ideas
Give Adam Rafferty a listen .
This topic OUGHT to be welcomed
I do not appreciate the lack of open minded ness on a pivotal topic like this
Do yourself a favor and when no one is looking. Read about the other side of the story
And that is a general truism for most matters

[transition]

Originally Posted by suraci

Transition. Then might you restate what the goal is?

If you've missed it every time it's been posted, one more statement of it isn't going to do much good.

If you're sincerely interested, reread the thread, focusing on what people are actually saying, and not what you think they're saying.

If you don't want to use a metronome, that's totally fine. Don't do it. No big deal.

If others want to, that's also fine. They'll do it. No big deal.

We don't all have to take the same path.

Ignoring or misconstruing the points made in the discussions of those paths isn't fun for anyone, though.

[suraci]

This thread is being turned into a me against the supposed rest of you who are devotees of heavy reliance on a metronome during practice

It is not just for me. I ask that you assume I have a mental incapacity perhaps- just please restate it it copy and paste it please

This is a VERY important topic
And repetition and clarity are therefore best adhered to
Young people need to see your position stated
In the same post as the counter argument made very well by ADAM RAFFERTY
Don’t Use a Metronome « Adam Rafferty – Guitar and Spirit

Please copy and paste the pro metronome position HERE

Rhythm is the most misunderstood topic in the music teaching field
Surely clarity and repetition can do no harm.
This serious topic has been marred by poor attitudes
For my part in that I apologize, especially to young music students.

[Ed Fuqua]

check this out - also at Dave Douglas, Greenleaf Music - jazz blog and store
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The Metronome: No matter what materials you are working on it’s important to have a thorough rhythmic awareness. One of the biggest issues I hear in group improvisation is when musicians, both individually and collectively, are not feeling time accurately and/or collaboratively. To work on this, play your melodies (or rhythms or timbres or tunes) with the metronome, but create some challenges by periodically shifting your relationship to the pulse. That is, without changing the metronome setting, play your material faster or slower in relationship to its steady beat.

Start with the metronome around 92 beats per minute. Begin by hearing the metronome’s pulse as a quarter note. Get comfortable with that. Then play your material twice as slow by hearing the metronome clicks as eighth notes. Play it twice as fast by considering the metronome pulse as a half note. Those are three of the most basic relationships.

To practice bebop or tune playing, the most common use of the metronome is to hear it on beats two and four in a bar of 4/4. Again, get comfortable with that relationship using whatever materials you have at hand. This is not about a right way or wrong way to hear. Rather, this exercise is about learning to play rhythm accurately no matter what contradictory or challenging information is put forth as an objective reference.

Once you are comfortable playing written or improvised material alone (or with others) with the metronome in the above relationships, you can add several further layers. Hear the metronome as a dotted quarter note. In 4/4 time, this will create a three bar phrase (in other words, there will be three bars between metronome clicks that fall on the first beat of the bar). However, continue to play the material you are practicing in its own phrases, if necessary against the three bar phrase of dotted quarter notes – the pulse being represented by the metronome. You can also practice material in ¾ time this way, with the bars being subdivided evenly by the dotted quarter notes.

Now hear the metronome as a dotted half note. This again creates a three bar phrase, with the metronome falling on one and four in the first bar, three in the second bar, and two in the third bar. Some of these relationships are tricky. Take your time to make sure you are able to hear this. Slow it down and write it down if necessary. The whole point of this is hearing and playing accurately. There’s no way to do that any faster or slower than you can hear. So be honest with yourself. Make sure you’re doing it for real. Life moves at unpredictable speeds, both unimaginably fast and slow, but also imperceptibly smooth, eternally calm and steady. Bring that into your practice by learning to accept it and work with it.

“Ninety percent of this game is half mental.” - Yogi Berra

These exercises are just the beginning. Try hearing the metronome on the eighth note after two and four. Or the eighth note before two and four. Or the triplet before or after two and four. Try hearing the metronome as a quintuplet in a 4/4 bar. Then try taking any of these relationships and, rather than practicing your material against the metronome, try going with the new phrasing proposed by the relationships. In other words, play your material with the accents of a three bar phrase, all the while holding the actual four bar phrase in your head so you don’t lose the “correct” placement of the notes. If you can hear it you can feel it and if you’re feeling it nothing can throw you.

Remember that the metronome doesn’t lie. There will be moments when you are convinced the metronome is broken. Don’t fall for it.

A frequently asked question is how to practice meters like 5/4 or 7/8 or 9/8 with a metronome. You can use these relationships to get at that, too. Subdivide the bar in half, for example. In 5/4 that would put the metronome on one and the second eighth note of three. Try it. Or hear the metronome as a whole note (every four beats) so that it represents: one and five in the first bar, four in the second, three in the third, and two in the fourth. Use this for any meter.

These exercises are about developing a solid time feel. Part of my motivation stems from the philosophy that each musician in an ensemble should be equally responsible for the time. Part of it comes from a desire for freedom -- freedom from being locked into playing something the same way every time, freedom to search for unique and varied means of expression.

“It was when I found out I could make mistakes that I knew I was on to something.” - Ornette Coleman

[suraci]

Thank you for that extended answer on various creative applications of the metronome-

Love Yogis wisdom and Yogi Berra's as well !

The Ornette comment, is a long story for me. I have never listened to him much
He is Too Free for my sense of what jazz is!!!"
That would be "freedom WITHIN a FORM" form for me includes more traditional relationships , resolution of intervals , - but the biggest issue I would like to re-bring up is the multi level aspect of jazz
Where it is possible ( though almost a lost art ) that a Master player can engender an almost ( through the artists genius - a sleight of hand so to speak )simultaneous Blues , feeling, swing feeling, triplet feel, shuffle , eighth note, be bop, and "beyond be bop ". This is such an amazing thing that rare jazz artists can do.
I lament that many of today's artists are letting go of earlier styles.
Not because of some sappy nostalgia - when you see a young player playing like 1945, I admit it seems a bit odd. So, no, not nostalgia or a narrow view of improvisation, no. What I am asking for young players to consider is to really learn each style and after styles are learned - combine them.
I do not hear the obviously super talented Metheny , or Meldau doing this.
Ornette never remotely reflected Bird, while Coltrane reflected Lester Bird Dexter Hawk AS WELL as his own thing
Sorry for rant
Thank you Ed for that contribution

[Jack Clark]

Thanks very much for that, Ed. Oughta be a sticky. An awful lot to work on in there. Thanks, again.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

What really perplexes me in these endless "metronome vs no metronome" threads is how "I advocate using a metronome as a practice tool" somehow gets twisted into "why do you rely heavily on a metronome for your time?". There's not even an indirect correlation there. It's like using a stopwatch measuring how fast you actually run the 40 as opposed to how fast you think you are. If an athlete runs a 4.2 second 40, that athlete is fast, and if he runs a 6 second 40, he's not - regardless of how fast he thinks he's running or feels like he's running.

Suppose an athlete has several running techniques he's working on, and wants to focus on the most effective one. One intelligent way to approach this would be to experiment by focusing on each one and then timing the results and comparing them. When an athlete does this, he/she is not 'relying heavily on the stopwatch for his/her speed"; rather they're objectively measuring their performance and trying to tweak it incrementally based on an objective analysis of the results. For actors, a video recorder would be a logical tool; for models, a camera. With musicians, metronomes and recorders can be used to do this. I just don't see what the fuss is about. I don't get my time from a metronome - I measure my control of it with a metronome and record the results. Then I analyze the difference between what it felt like to play when I was caught up in the heat of the moment against what it actually sounds like when I'm just listening; after that, I can tweak the bits that didn't sound as good as I'd like to sound by noting tendencies that I'd like to improve in the future. I just can't imagine how that could possibly, in any way be a bad thing. For me, anyway.

I posted it in another thread, but I really like learning tunes by playing solo against a metronome and recording the results, as in this example. In the other thread about tune learning, I mention a lot of things that I don't like about the time feel on this cut, and those are the things I'm working to be more aware of when playing. I'm doing much the same these days, only adding a fixed drone into the mix to add an extra layer of intonation awareness to the time awareness. I'm trying to transcend metronomic time, but feel that you can't transcend what you have not yet attained. My ability to play on top of and behind the beat hinges on my ability to play with the beat, and I think trying to objectify that in the shed helps the more creative expression of it on the bandstand. I'd sure hate to have to play with a drum machine on a gig, but I'd like to think that I could. I like Ed's duo practice with a 'nome idea, and have done something like it in a band situation on a tune where there was a tune involving a series of metric modulations that everybody was hearing differently. We spent about an hour practicing together with a metronome, and at the end, we were all a lot more attuned to not only the beat, but also each person's tendencies in relation to it; we sure sounded a whole lot better afterward. I also use the 'nome/recorder tandem with students often to let them hear their own time fluctuations that they aren't as aware of as they should be; afterwards, we listen and discuss strategies. I've never even once regretted doing this. As always EEMMV.

[Ed Fuqua]

Originally Posted by suraci

Ed. How do the actual players ( as distinct from the ideal a gnome ) stack up to that ideal
Eg I had asked you about roger mancuso. How did he compare to the gnome
? Have you ever played with someone of considerable reputation and found that they were not as good at matching up with gnome time .... What did you do, "make the best of it "?
Generally speaking. How do players do when compared to gnome time?
Generally speaking, how do the recordings you prize or prized, do, with ideal time?

That's the great thing about doing the 'half time" transcription method, you hear how some cats are just smearing notes in the vicinity of the time stream and how some are dropping them in with remarkable precision. Pres is a great example, when you listen to him play it seems so laconic and relaxed, play it back at half time and he's putting each note right where he wants it, in the time stream. Somebody like Blakey; there are some live recordings that rush so badly that the whole band basically has to stop so that they can reintroduce the out head at the same tempo they started.

And that's basically the whole misconception you're pushing, that it's either/or, "metronomic" time or "human pulse"; I've typed on this subject ad infinitum on this site, if you're too lazy to do a search, why should I bother to type it all again?

[Ed Fuqua]

Originally Posted by suraci

In born talent is the elephant in this living room forum

To quote Shelley Manne, "It's amazing how much talent you have when you practice 12 hours a day". Also one of my favorite musicians, bassist Sonny Dallas, was coming off a set and another bass player came up to him and told him how great he sounded. Sonny's response was classic, he said " You're not hearing anything but a lot of hard work. You put in the work, you can sound like that, too."

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by suraci

The Ornette comment, is a long story for me. I have never listened to him much
He is Too Free for my sense of what jazz is!!!"
That would be "freedom WITHIN a FORM" form for me includes more traditional relationships , resolution of intervals

Not to derail the thread futher, wait, f*&* it, to just go with the oddly compelling derailed thread:
This quote reveals the depth of your mis-hearings and misunderstandings.

Ornette, especially the early Atlantic albums is far more traditional in terms of interval relationships and even melodic material than Coltrane.
Ornette used blues and bebop material against a harmonic base that moved freely with the melodies.
While the form moved freely the relationship between Haden and Ornette's notes is generally pretty traditional.
Whereas Coltrane invented new harmonic language and really took it out there. So yeah - it is clear you never LISTENED much.
If you are refering to Ornette's trumpet and violin playing, that is different, and in my opinion more interesting!

Your misunderstanding of metronome practice is similar:
Just because some idiots use it incorrectly and end up with stiff, rigid time doesn't mean the greats didn't spend time with it or that you can't use it to make your own time better.

[oliebrice]

The earliest Atlantic albums even have more form than is generally recognised. Ramblin', for example, stays in a form the whole way through, alternating a 12 bar 'open blues' and a 16 bar more straight 8ths / dotted crotchet feel. You can count it the whole way through the track, Haden and Higgins don't abandon the form. It's not until 'This is our music' that they leave predetermined form behind completely