Go Back   TalkBass Forums > Double Bass Forums > Music Theory [DB]
Register Rules/FAQ/CUP Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Music Theory [DB] Chords, bass lines, melody, intervals, scales, modes, etc.


Supporting Membership
Thank You

Latest Supporting Member
Donate to Upgrade Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
  #1  
Old 04-26-2006, 12:42 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Supporting Member
Dolphin Dance

Does anyone know the changes for the last 4 bars of Herbie Hancock's "Dolphin Dance"? There are 3 chords over an Eb pedal, and I've heard various things about them. Anyone with ideas?
Sign in to disble this ad
  #2  
Old 04-26-2006, 01:16 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Chicago
I've heard a all different things from different piano players.

Here are the changes from the leadsheet I have.

DbM7/Eb | Bb13(b9)/Eb | C7(#9)/Eb | G7(#5 #9) |
__________________
<make a jazz noise here>
www.marcpiane.com
  #3  
Old 04-26-2006, 10:11 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Supporting Member
Thanks Marc; I'll try those out tommorrow.
  #4  
Old 04-26-2006, 10:44 PM
Chris Fitzgerald's Avatar
Student of Life
Forum Administrator
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Louisville, KY
Here's a comparison I did earlier this semester of the two places where the changes vary widely between various sources.

JA = Aebersold
NRB3 = New Real Book Vol. 3
RB = Real Book

Just for the hell of it, I'll also attach Brian Bromberg's transcribed solo on Dolphin Dance from "Wood".
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Dolpin Dance Changes (sm).jpg
Views:	184
Size:	46.8 KB
ID:	33648  Click image for larger version

Name:	Dolphin Dance p1.jpg
Views:	222
Size:	103.3 KB
ID:	33653  
__________________
Wherever you go, there you are.
chrisfitzgeraldmusic.com
  #5  
Old 04-26-2006, 10:46 PM
Chris Fitzgerald's Avatar
Student of Life
Forum Administrator
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Louisville, KY
The rest of the solo:
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Dolphin Dance p2.jpg
Views:	125
Size:	104.1 KB
ID:	33654  Click image for larger version

Name:	Dolphin Dance p.3jpg.jpg
Views:	90
Size:	90.8 KB
ID:	33655  
__________________
Wherever you go, there you are.
chrisfitzgeraldmusic.com
  #6  
Old 04-27-2006, 06:37 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Chicago
Most of the guys I play with consider the Real Book changes to be 'wrong'. The E to Eb pedal seems more widely accepted. At least with the guys I know.

There is one sax player I play with though that like the B to Bb pedal. Brain Bromberg does too.
__________________
<make a jazz noise here>
www.marcpiane.com
  #7  
Old 04-27-2006, 07:41 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Supporting Member
Thanks alot Chris; I gotta check all those out!

I know Ron Carter plays the E to Eb pedal on the original; I never heard a B to Bb pedal from anyone before.
  #8  
Old 05-04-2006, 06:32 AM
Jason Hollar's Avatar
Supporting Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Pittsburgh area
Supporting Member
Chris -- did you transcribe this? You da man!

Right -- in most cases, I refer to the "legal" or Aebersold changes when learning a tune. Funny thing is...so many people are used to the "illegal" Real Book changes -- you almost have to know several versions of the same tune!

Kind of nuts huh? Best case -- listen to the original recording -- Herbie -- and refer to a modern chart.
__________________
cadillacjazz.com
  #9  
Old 05-04-2006, 06:44 AM
Chris Fitzgerald's Avatar
Student of Life
Forum Administrator
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Louisville, KY
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Hollar
Chris -- did you transcribe this? You da man!
Yup, and the piano solo, too. My poor grad students each had to lift a chorus from this cut as one of their 8 required transcriptions for a class I taught this year. The purpose of this particular assignment was to teach humility as regards chops.

Quote:
Right -- in most cases, I refer to the "legal" or Aebersold changes when learning a tune. Funny thing is...so many people are used to the "illegal" Real Book changes -- you almost have to know several versions of the same tune!

Kind of nuts huh? Best case -- listen to the original recording -- Herbie -- and refer to a modern chart.
Agreed. The funny thing is that if you listen to this recording enough, the pedals he plays on the end make a lot of sonic sense, as they tend to make the tune turn around well - especially during one chorus of the piano solo where Brian plays the Bb pedal resolving to Eb and then down to the the ii-V of Cmi.
__________________
Wherever you go, there you are.
chrisfitzgeraldmusic.com
  #10  
Old 05-09-2006, 08:12 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: NYC
Dolphin dancin

The most fixed thing about Dolphin Dance you can say is that the pedal tones have certain tendencies. For example if you think of the Eb pedal as a sequence of scale pallettes--mixolydian, Bb 1/2 whole, Ab mel. minor and then the minor II V to C- with a Galt dom sound. You simply voice the chords with tones that are pulled into these flavors. The phrygian concept mentioned--
C7#9 over Eb, I haven't heard that one.

Herbie flexes on the written chords but is sensitive to the functional aspect of each. So for example he thinks of the G (with the exc of the opening Gmaj7) and F as sus type pedals that move around to and from that gravity. The Eb pedal has a slightly different characteristic. It feels like a dominant pedal (whereby the eb is the V) but then there is that Bb 1/2 W which is almost like V of V (Bachian if you will) and then the Ab melodic minor which feels a bit like a phrygian concept and makes you switch the implied root to Eb (a I pedal) and then a dovetail to relative minor C-.

The tune in part is based on this duality where the pedal tones shift between feeling like I and V. For example the opening of the tune Ebmaj to Eb7sus or the bridge G maj to G7sus. That helps put the final Eb pedal in perspective. I think you should try to hear this harmonic "feeling" carefully in order to really capture the essence of Herbie's compositional process.
Reply



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Follow TalkBass on Twitter   Visit TalkBass on Facebook  

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:37 PM.




Copyright 2011 Talk Music Group Inc. All rights reserved.
Play guitar? Visit our new sister site TalkGuitar.com [beta]
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.12
Copyright ©2000 - 2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.