Dominant b9/Dominant #9

[jimclark68]

I'm trying to get my head wrapped around these chords and the scales surrounding these chords. I searched through the past threads and didn't stumble across anything that was quite related, although I might have missed something.

As I practice various scales these days, I'm using both Rufus Reid's book and the Aebersold scale syllabus as references. For the dominant b9 chord, the basic structure is a dominant chord with the b9 thrown in. The suggested scale is a diminished scale (half step, whole step, etc.), which also gives the #9 and a #4 to the sound. However, for a dominant #9 chord, the structure uses a #5 according to the suggested diminished whole tone scale. With either scale you get both the b9 and #9, as well as the #4. I guess my biggest question is, for the dominant #9 chord, why is 5th raised? Whether one's approach to soloing is based on scales or chords, or outlining the sound of the harmony when walking, the raised 5th is an important distinction, but it seems counterintuitive to me when it would appear that the only difference is the flatted vs. raised 9th. Is it typical for the 5th to be raised as well when the 9th is in a dominant chord?

Also, a disclaimer - I'm not really making a point about scales vs. chords/arpeggios for improvisation. I'm looking at this first as a way to better understand harmony, and second, as an exercise in learning the fingerboard better though learning scales.

[smogg]

in short..... yes

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Here's thread on that very subject.

The basic answer is that in both the diminished scale and the altered scale, the 9th exists in both raised and lowered forms, and both contain major thirds, raised fourths, and flatted sevenths; the dimished scale uses the natural 5th and 6th in the "middle", giving it an extra note, whereas the "altered" (diminished whole tone) scale uses only the sharp five instead. The bigger answer is that those sounds are often optional and/or interchangeable depending on what the soloist is hearing at that moment.

[jimclark68]

Thanks Chris, I'm embarrassed that I missed a thread with that very title. I'm usually sitting here reading posts and thinking to myself, "Man, just do a search..."

Thanks for your knowledge, I was hoping you'd chime in on the subject.

[Michael Case]

I had learned that on dominant chords with #9 and #5 you can play the melodic minor scale a half step above the root. So if you're looking at G7#9 #5 playing Ab melodic minor will give you all the good notes of the chord. I like this idea because it cuts down the amount of scale names I need to remember. I don't know why I posted this, just thought it would be cool.

[musicman5string]

All this is well and good, but keep in mind that on an altered dominant chord you don't just play the altered dominant scale, the same way you may not play the major scale on a major 7, or the lydian on a major 7, and the dorian on a minor 7, etc. etc.
I know that sounds like hubris, but in reality there is no solo that sticks to these rules and conventions that in the end sounds good. Even what is argulably one of the most famous solos ever, Miles solo on "So What", which is supposed to be a study in the dorian mode, does not stay within that scale exclusively.
Now, the corresponding scales are great great places to start, and for a good example of these any bass player should check out John Patitucci's video about soloing (Electric Bass 2 I think?). He goes into great detail about various scales and demonstrates with his amzing playing. So obviously much can be done with parent scales.
However, starting with Armstrong and Lester Young and going through Parker, Diz, Miles, Trane, Brecker, and just about anyone else on any instrument, you can't just say "this scale goes with this chord"; you have to learn the language as well.

[Michael Case]

I can't agree with you more. The biggest problem I have to this chord=this scale is that it makes the whole improvisation thing seem daunting. For me it felt like I had to master all of these scales before I could play anything. I do feel it has relevance though, as a practice tool and as a means of finding sounds you can use in your improvisation, but if you stick to this idea your solos will sound like a guy running scales. Nothing is worse than hearing a guy doing scale practice on the bandstand.

Just remember there are many ways to approach improvisation.

[Michael Case]

Originally Posted by musicman5string

(Electric Bass 2 I think?).

You mentioned and EB video on the DB forum! The horror!

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by Michael Case

Nothing is worse than hearing a guy doing scale practice on the bandstand.

Amen.

[Michael Case]

Chris,

Where do you get all the cool photos you attach to your posts? They're great!

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by Michael Case

Chris,

Where do you get all the cool photos you attach to your posts? They're great!

Google is your friend. Do a Google search for any particular subject (this last was "applause"), then click on "images" when the results come in and take yer pick.



(I asked the Google-ru to find results for "Google is your friend")

[Michael Case]

Ha!

Gotta love the Google.

[anonymous8547j7d7b]

Originally Posted by Michael Case

I can't agree with you more. The biggest problem I have to this chord=this scale is that it makes the whole improvisation thing seem daunting. For me it felt like I had to master all of these scales before I could play anything. I do feel it has relevance though, as a practice tool and as a means of finding sounds you can use in your improvisation, but if you stick to this idea your solos will sound like a guy running scales. Nothing is worse than hearing a guy doing scale practice on the bandstand.

Just remember there are many ways to approach improvisation.

So true. I recall about 10 yrs ago some of the Berklee tutors did a course in Scotland. Someone asked the inevitable "What's the scale for this chord?" Dave Clark (SERIOUS cat ) just kinda looked like & replied, "I don't understand.What kind of consonance or dissonance are you trying to achieve?" It was a mind-expanding moment

[musicman5string]

Originally Posted by Michael Case

You mentioned and EB video on the DB forum! The horror!

Yeah, well, I think we'll all survive.......

[musicman5string]

Originally Posted by Michael Case

I can't agree with you more. The biggest problem I have to this chord=this scale is that it makes the whole improvisation thing seem daunting. For me it felt like I had to master all of these scales before I could play anything.

Yeah, but that's not what I'm saying. I think it's wise to learn all the parent scales to various chords first, then use transciption, ear training, and all around musicality to guide you as to what you're hearing.
The thing I hate most about some solos is when someone is ********!ing 8th notes in a bebop style over changes, the content of which is frivolous. Clarity, for me anyways, is where it's at.

[Jason Hollar]

What a great topic!

I recently acquired an archtop guitar to learn my jazz chord voicings in order to work out some of these very issues.


Questions:

Can you look at this as matter of evolution?

Is the dimished sound more associated with much of the earlier and "traditional" swing & bebop styles?

Does the #9 dim/whole tone sound imply a more "modern" jazz harmony?

[musicman5string]

To me, both sounds became prevalent, if not invented, by Bird and Diz.

[Michael Case]

Originally Posted by musicman5string

Yeah, but that's not what I'm saying. I think it's wise to learn all the parent scales to various chords first, then use transciption, ear training, and all around musicality to guide you as to what you're hearing.
The thing I hate most about some solos is when someone is ********!ing 8th notes in a bebop style over changes, the content of which is frivolous. Clarity, for me anyways, is where it's at.

No argument from me, I was just stating how it has felt/does feel for me.