freebop

[Marc Piane]

Originally Posted by hdiddy

BTW: Nice paintings Phillip. Me like.

yes yes. I want to take more time to absorb but I've always dug your stuff Phil. I'd actually like to see it in person the next time I'm in NYC.

[philip sirois]

Thanks so much guys.

Marc, you're always welcome to come hang at my studio for a bit. Please don't hesitate if your in town and have some time.

[Marc Piane]

I'd very much enjoy that. I'll give you a shout next time I am NYC bound.

[damonsmith]

The crucial difference between visual art and music is that big part of musical study involves how to relate to others.
When collaboration does happen in visual as in Warhol & Basquiat or Mike Kelley and Paul McCarthy the collaborators only need to understand each other's work, rather than an international shared vocabulary.

Beyond that ideas like modernism, impressionism, abstraction etc. relate fairly directly.

However, Marc isn't talking about anything abstract - he is talking about freely improvising within an inside idiom. It is pretty much like Fuqua's "really learning tune thread" without the tune. You have to hear and play your way through a tune as it unfolds for the first time ever.

[philip sirois]

I don't want to belabor it, since the original topic is pretty interesting to me(and I apologize for derailing) but that's not a crucial difference. Lots of musicians work alone and some artists work in interactive, cooperative groups. Those facts alone don't change what they're doing.

If you want to know what really drives the collaborations of those famous artist you mention, follow the money, my friend.

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by philip sirois

I don't want to belabor it, since the original topic is pretty interesting to me(and I apologize for derailing) but that's not a crucial difference. Lots of musicians work alone and some artists work in interactive, cooperative groups. Those facts alone don't change what they're doing.

It is a crucial different in the formal study, in practice there are tons of exceptions.

Originally Posted by philip sirois

If you want to know what really drives the collaborations of those famous artist you mention, follow the money, my friend.

We love to go OT here so: Warhol was already rich, and so was Basquiat by then, so I don't think that was about money.
Kelley was doing quite well in the last few years, but I think he and McCarthy could have done better financially with far less difficult work. Their collaborations were really nasty! Their collaboration was also way before Kelley's Gagosian career.

[marcberez]

I've was doing this back in Boston in the late 70s. Mike Stern, Mick Goodrick, and Bill Frisell were all doing it although I even doubt they were the first to do so. Think of Coltrane doing My Favorite Things in the 60s.

Good players get bored with the standards. There is only so much one can do while staying in the box. The same harmonies over and over can drive one crazy.

I love starting out a standard, playing the head and then getting farther and farther away from the form. It's fun, but probably only for people who can appreciate it, usually other players.

I would love to hear any recordings you have of your ventures to the other side.

Good luck!

Marc

[philip sirois]

Originally Posted by marcberez

It's fun, but probably only for people who can appreciate it, usually other players.

I know in New York musicians and their significant others make up the vast majority of the audience for any kind of adventurous jazz or jazz influenced music.

[philip sirois]

Originally Posted by damonsmith

It is a crucial different in the formal study, in practice there are tons of exceptions.




We love to go OT here so: Warhol was already rich, and so was Basquiat by then, so I don't think that was about money.
Kelley was doing quite well in the last few years, but I think he and McCarthy could have done better financially with far less difficult work. Their collaborations were really nasty! Their collaboration was also way before Kelley's Gagosian career.

That's why I love musicians. They believe. That's a good thing in my view. That's what keep guys like yourself doing what they do, despite the fact that they're probably not going to get that beach house anytime soon by doing it. I see guys like William Parker playing their asses off in dingy lofts with minimal heat and bad wiring for a five dollar donation.

Believe me, Paul McCarthy, despite the fact that some of his work can be "difficult", could have that beach house many times over. And there are lots of big money people involved at every step. That, in and of itself doesn't call his integrity into question, but money is always a big influence at the top of the art world food chain.

[damonsmith]

Well, selling unique objects is a better business to be in. If you want to make money as an artist, you just need to two millionaires to want one painting. In music you need a million to want to PAY for your album or show!

[philip sirois]

It seems like it should be that simple , but believe me its not. i'm happy to continue this discussion but the off topic category would be more appropriate.

[bass_study]

I think Hal Galper played this kind of Music as he once said he basically used the bebop language during improv.

This kind of music definitely required more concentration and effort to appreciate. If you have a form inside a particular standard, not saying the meters but i mean basic structure of the form, with particular idiom likes harmony which still make sense. Just something without a aesthetic standard can be dangerous, if it is not based on certain ground or tradition.

For me, it is hard to say which is more free, if you listen to certain meter for 50 years of your life and you play with a language, say like bebop language in music, they can be also a free or as authentic as freebop. I think it is just different style of music.

[damonsmith]

the Bobo Stenson trio:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvZrpZvcxqc

[macdeezy]

You can loosen up form-driven music by keeping the form completely but not marking the sections of a tune. It's a balancing act -- if the whole band goes to this side then the form may get lost completely.

But what really strikes my interest is improvised music...either completely improvised or coming from some type of prompt (poetry, visual, text).

Have any of you checked out Karlheinz Stockhausen's intuitive music? Text based pieces that are to be interpreted...can lead to some very deep moments on the band stand.