Giant Steps? Is this correct?

arbitrary · #1 07-18-2006, 10:43 AM

This is my first post in the double bass forum (usually browse the electric side) so I humbly ask for your grace.

But I decided to put my education to more use and figure out Giant Steps, mostly just how the chords move and what keys to solo in.

So this is what I got (used from the real book): Correct?

B D7 | G Bb7 | Eb | A-7 D7 |

I V7 | I V7 | I | II- V7 | ----?

G Bb7 | Eb F#7 | B | F- Bb7 |

I V7 | I V7 | I | II- V7 | ----?

Eb | A-7 D7 | G | C#-7 F#7 |

I | II-7 V7 | I | II-7 V7 | ----?

B | F-7 Bb7 | Eb | C#-7 F#7 |

I | II-7 V7 | I | II-7 V7 | ----?

So does this mean then I solo in B modes, G modes, Eb modes, G modes, Eb modes, B modes, Eb modes, G modes, B modes, Eb modes, and then back to B modes? Does this stand up correctly? Or is there another way to do this?

Thanks a bunch.

reedo35 · #2 07-18-2006, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arbitrary

So does this mean then I solo in B modes, G modes, Eb modes, G modes, Eb modes, B modes, Eb modes, G modes, B modes, Eb modes, and then back to B modes? Does this stand up correctly? Or is there another way to do this?

Thanks a bunch.

You will go insane if you try to think of it like that! You will notice that it is mostly ll V progressions, so think of soloing over the progressions, rather than the individual chords.

arbitrary · #3 07-18-2006, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reedo35

You will go insane if you try to think of it like that! You will notice that it is mostly ll V progressions, so think of soloing over the progressions, rather than the individual chords.

I thought that is what I did? I would solo from the I mode of each prgression.

let me recheck this.

Marcus Johnson · #4 07-18-2006, 11:24 AM

First chord in bar 8 should be F-7. And Reedo's right, it's just a lot of two-fiving, so that should get you thru a lot easier.

arbitrary · #5 07-18-2006, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus Johnson

First chord in bar 8 should be F-7. And Reedo's right, it's just a lot of two-fiving, so that should get you thru a lot easier.

typo thanks.

arbitrary · #6 07-18-2006, 11:37 AM

hmm...

in bars 1 and 2 is a V7 I in G so solo in G modes
bars 2 and 3 is a V7 I in Eb so solo in Eb
bars 4 and 5 is a ii- V7 I in G so again G modes
bars 5 and 6 is a V7 I in Eb so Eb modes
bars 6 and 7 is a V7 I in B (B modes)
Then the last 9 bars are the ii V7 I.

Or are there any more ii- V7 I progressions in the first 7 bars?

Thanks

Clay_Bass · #7 07-21-2006, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arbitrary

This is my first post in the double bass forum (usually browse the electric side) so I humbly ask for your grace.

But I decided to put my education to more use and figure out Giant Steps, mostly just how the chords move and what keys to solo in.

So this is what I got (used from the real book): Correct?

B D7 | G Bb7 |

I V7 | I V7 |
Thanks a bunch.

Im not going to take the time to analyze your whole chart but B to D7 is not 1 to 5. D is a minor 3rd of B. Same with G to Bb7 its a minor third.

tkozal · #8 07-21-2006, 10:24 AM

D7 is V of the G, the Bb7 is the V of the following Eb, the breaks are confusing...the first B is really the three of the G

Aaron Saunders · #9 07-21-2006, 05:09 PM

That statement strikes me as slightly odd, being that the first B is Bmaj7, which is quite difficult to fit diatonically into G major. The whole point of Giant Steps is changing tonics...but the thing is, everything's still diatonic. It's just that the keys are so rapidly shifting.

Dig this cool flash animation... http://www.heplaysjazz.btinternet.co.uk/giants.html (not the Michael Levy trippy one)

Phil Smith · #10 07-21-2006, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron Saunders

That statement strikes me as slightly odd, being that the first B is Bmaj7, which is quite difficult to fit diatonically into G major. The whole point of Giant Steps is changing tonics...but the thing is, everything's still diatonic. It's just that the keys are so rapidly shifting.

The melody notes in the first two bars are from GMajor, the melody notes are none other than F# D B G a descending GMajor arpeggio. Thinking chordally you see and hear this right away.

Aaron Saunders · #11 07-21-2006, 09:52 PM

The only note on the first chord -- eg, the chord in question, Bmaj7 -- is F#. That is, the fifth of Bmaj7. Thinking chordally you can see the F# is simply a common tone between two tonics.

arbitrary · #12 07-21-2006, 11:49 PM

I figure the C#-7 and the F#7 in the last bar of the chart would be the ii- V7 of the first chord B maj.

Aaron Saunders · #13 07-26-2006, 11:04 AM

Also, this month's issue of Bassplayer Magazine has John Goldsby's article on "Advanced Jazz Concepts" focusing on Giant Steps. Excerpt from the second paragraph:

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Goldsby, BP Magazine August 06

Check out the root movement before picking up your bass -- you need to understand the theory before you let your fingers do the walking. In the first four bars, the chords move quickly through three key centres: B major, G major, and Eb major.

EDIT: As a general note, I've noticed that Goldsby seems to be a big fan of PC and Trane in general. I remember a little while ago he transcribed the entire bassline to "Mr. PC" in one issue...

WillBuckingham · #14 07-30-2006, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron Saunders

Also, this month's issue of Bassplayer Magazine has John Goldsby's article on "Advanced Jazz Concepts" focusing on Giant Steps. Excerpt from the second paragraph:

EDIT: As a general note, I've noticed that Goldsby seems to be a big fan of PC and Trane in general. I remember a little while ago he transcribed the entire bassline to "Mr. PC" in one issue...

You beat me to it. For those who haven't read the article, he explains the piece in terms of major 3rd motion. It moves down in major 3rds and then up in major 3rds and then back down. Think of the ii-V's as prefixes to there resolution.

fraublugher · #15 07-30-2006, 11:34 PM

some good tips here
http://www.activebass.com/default.as...6p%3D1%26a%3D0

Howard K · #16 07-31-2006, 07:41 AM

As was said, I (at least thought I) understood the chords to GS were based on splitting two octaves into major 3rds, then adding in II-Vs for each tonic.. doesn't help me play it tho

I just cant hear changes that fast let alone play them!

So, when playing a tune with that many changes at a high tempo, would you tend to play lines in the key of the moment, or actually play each change?

I might have to re-visit it slowly, slowly, slowly

WillBuckingham · #17 07-31-2006, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howard K

As was said, I (at least thought I) understood the chords to GS were based on splitting two octaves into major 3rds, then adding in II-Vs for each tonic.. doesn't help me play it tho

I just cant hear changes that fast let alone play them!

So, when playing a tune with that many changes at a high tempo, would you tend to play lines in the key of the moment, or actually play each change?

I might have to re-visit it slowly, slowly, slowly

Here's what I'd do: Listen to Coltrane doing it a lot . . . i.e. for a few hours. Then take the tune at a tempo (probably will be a crawl at first) that you can play a coherent and beutiful solo or walking line (whatever you're practicing) You want to both work with each individual chord and think of it as bigger units.

Aaron Saunders · #18 07-31-2006, 05:31 PM

Yeah man, I'd say just do it slow and work your way up, just like anything else.

It's the same as playing rhythm -- do you just play in Bb until the key changes, or do you actually hit the I-vi-ii-V? Just because it's fast doesn't mean it's impossible, it's just more work to get it past your thought process and into your ear.

I haven't seriously started working on Giant Steps yet in a practical sense, just understanding the theory behind it. That said, yesterday I started to really tackle rhythm changes (not as difficult, yes, but there's a lot of changes that go by very fast) and it just takes time to get it up to tempo.

To be honest, I think people today make too big of a deal about this tune. It's the same as any other difficult tune -- break it down, take it slow, and eventually you'll play your ass off on it. I saw Gordon Webster tear this tune apart like it was Autumn Leaves at a ludicrous tempo with some of the craziest lines I've ever heard...but I can guarantee you, he didn't play it like that the first time he tried it.

WillBuckingham · #19 07-31-2006, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron Saunders

To be honest, I think people today make too big of a deal about this tune.

No. Giant Steps was a revolutionary recording for Coltrane and jazz in general.

Jeff Guevin · #20 07-31-2006, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillBuckingham

No. Giant Steps was a revolutionary recording for Coltrane and jazz in general.

I think Aaron's point was that people have an unhealthy fear of this tune, and while it has unusual harmony, its challenges can be surmounted with a methodical approach.

EDIT: Which is actually the same point you made above. I don't see that Aaron has argued that Giant Steps isn't important.