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10-27-2004, 10:49 AM
|  | So much flame, it burns............ | | Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Las Vegas, NV. | | Quote: |
Originally Posted by chrismmc Can anyopne explain Ornette Coleman's Harmolodoc theory to me?... in a way a rational musican can understand? | Geez. After reading through this entire thread my head is swimming like no other TalkBass thread previous.
Now, as far as the original question/quote above:
I asked the very same question of a guitarist I played with about 20 years ago, who was very, very into Harmolodics (Harmelodics?).
He  at me and said: "It's all the wrong notes". 
How's that for dumbing-down a conversation? 
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10-27-2004, 10:52 AM
|  | Unprofessional TalkBass Contributor | | Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Brighton, England, UK, Europe | | Quote: |
Originally Posted by PhatBasstard
He at me and said: "It's all the wrong notes".
How's that for dumbing-down a conversation? | As any fule doth know - the correct reply is :
There are no wrong notes, only wrong resolutions!!!
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10-27-2004, 11:15 AM
| | So much flame, it burns............ | | Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Las Vegas, NV. | | Quote: |
Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield As any fule doth know - the correct reply is :
There are no wrong notes, only wrong resolutions!!! | That's what I told him! 
Sheeez,...friggin' guitar players. 
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10-30-2004, 11:37 PM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: new york area | | | I auditioned for ornette about 10 years ago. I have no idea where he got my number but I met him at a studio on 125th street. For about 3 hours we played and he talked about roles of insturments, bass playing in alto clef, trumpet playing in F clef,and just TONS of other concepts. years earlier I had tried to figure out harmolodics like most of my friends, but gave up. So I a very basic idea but MAN, this guy has a lot of stuff going on in his head. Anyway, after about 2 hours of mostly talking, he said something and all of a sudden the last 2 hours made complete sense and logic to me. For a split second I think I really understood it, everything. I stared at him with my mouth open and he looked at me and said, "Yeah, I know what I'm talking about." It was pretty funny. And as quickly as it came, whatever it was left my mind and I was, and still am, as confused as ever about harmolodics. Towards the end of our afternoon we played If I Should Lose You and he played the living **** out of it. just incredible. Anyway, thanks for letting me throw my story out there. |
11-01-2004, 08:39 AM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: NYC | | | Tim, you played with ORNETTE!?! I mean this sincerely from the bottom of my heart.
F**k you!
You bastard.
That must have been scary/wonderful....
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11-01-2004, 11:01 AM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: new york area | | | Ed, the list of legends that I've played with once is very long. ones I've played with more than once,,, very short. Notice how well I parlayed my 3 hours with Ornette into many duo gigs at Sophia's.
Joking aside, it was an incredible experience at the most perfectly wrong time in my life. I really wish something more could have come of it. |
11-01-2004, 11:18 AM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: NYC | | | I hear ya. Still and all, that's 3 more hours than most of us have had.
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11-01-2004, 06:36 PM
|  | Registered User | | Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA | | | Oh great....someone merely mentioned the Lydian Chromatic Concept and now I've got a migraine. Dang it.
-Scot |
11-17-2004, 04:44 AM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: London, UK | | | Saw Cecil Taylor the other night, with Tony Oxley and Bill Dixon, and now I'm going to have to bring this up again!
Cecil build his entire 30 minutes improvisation from one 4 note motif, and the amount of structure going one was incredible. I already loved his playing, but now I'm really sold... although he was obviously going fairly out-there, I could hear the relation the the 4 note pattern the whole way through. The amount of rhythmic variation round the pattern, harmonic stuff built off it, build and release of tension, I'm compltely convinced that you could apply webern-esque analysis to the complete peice.
Joh and others, go and hear him again and listen carefully, or get some recent recordings (especially with the feel trio, Tony Oxley and William Parker) and again, listen carefully.. |
11-24-2004, 08:48 AM
| | Registered User | | Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: NYC | | | cecil revisited
Well at some point I have planned try to listen to his discographic history to see if this helps orient me into why some people dig him. I printed it out the other day. Getting a hold of such recordings in a library for example would probably be difficult. I read an interview he did where he talks about architecture in response to questions on practicing. Honestly he may be a Diaghelev type character-very sensitive to all of the arts and the great artists in the general sense, but my question still remains the specifics of his approach to music. The devil is in the details--which is in a way is funny when he described Miles personality as devil possessed.  |
11-25-2004, 03:03 AM
| | Unprofessional TalkBass Contributor | | Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Brighton, England, UK, Europe | | | Well, there's a lot of "interesting" music out there - we don't have to like it all, even if the concepts are in some way "valid"?
I've listened to a fair amount of Stockhausen's music and it always has an interesting concept and some kind of unique and new approach - e.g. in terms of notation or performance protoculs.
BUT - some of it sounds wonderful and is genuinely moving music - while some of it is dreadfully dull, boring and not worth the effort - IMO of course!
Just because somebody is a musical genius, doesn't guarantee that they will make great music or that anybody will like it....
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11-25-2004, 12:24 PM
| | | Quote: |
Originally Posted by chrismmc Can anyopne explain Ornette Coleman's Harmolodoc theory to me?... in a way a rational musican can understand? | the word harmolodic is ornette's contribution to ebonics to describe the fact that he can't or won't play changes |
11-25-2004, 02:40 PM
|  | Journeyman Clam Artist Moderator | | Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Winnipeg, baby | | | klepto, if you checked out some of Ornette's earliest stuff, stuff that had everybody talking about how freaky he was, you'll hear that by today's harmonic standards it's quite tame and plain Jane. I'm on record here as not having a lot of respect for "conceptual" music. When I listen to something like "The Shape Of Jazz To Come", I hear blues. Not very scary.
Ornette Coleman can play changes. It's silly to suggest otherwise.
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11-25-2004, 03:33 PM
| | | Quote: |
Originally Posted by Damon Rondeau klepto, if you checked out some of Ornette's earliest stuff, stuff that had everybody talking about how freaky he was, you'll hear that by today's harmonic standards it's quite tame and plain Jane. I'm on record here as not having a lot of respect for "conceptual" music. When I listen to something like "The Shape Of Jazz To Come", I hear blues. Not very scary.
Ornette Coleman can play changes. It's silly to suggest otherwise. | damon, thanks for the advice... i'm actually a fan of ornette and i have checked-out quite a bit of his music--i own a lot of his recordings and i've seen him play live a few times
my curiosity has gotten the best of me... i wonder what you think of charlie parker, since you claim that you don't have a lot of respect for "conceptual" music |
11-25-2004, 03:47 PM
| | Journeyman Clam Artist Moderator | | Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Winnipeg, baby | | | I think I'm on record earlier in this very thread about what I mean by "conceptual" music.
It's kinda like having an ideology -- if I'm a Communist, then everything is class struggle; if I'm a libertarian, everything is because of too much government. Yada yada. If you go too far down that road, you're not making original ideas anymore, you're stamping out product.
If I have a theory about how to make music and insist upon the theory -- without reference to what musicians and listeners actually, empirically, verifiably like about music -- then I say that the probability the music sucks, the likelihood that the music will not survive beyond the moment, has risen.
Charlie Parker did all kinds of things, some of which he knew about and others of which he didn't. Not enough people talk about the revolution in rhythm and swinging he and Diz set upon the music world. The harmonic breakthroughs? I say it's much more likely his inner ear heard a music that he was driven to express than it is that he had this intellectual idea he had to realize.
By "conceptual" music, I'm much more thinking about Stockhausen, Anthony Braxton, sh*t like that.
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