Hearing changes ??

[cire113]

Instead of digging trough my real book every time someone suggested I start trying to play new songs without looking at the chord chart..

For the most part i hear most songs have alot 2-5s or 2-5-1s progressions..

The problem is I can't ever Really distinguish the actual chords or quality or even Root notes

Do you guys have any tips or suggestions for being able to hear changes better? Or does this just come from years of playing/practice ..

I always try to listen to bass
But man it's so hard to distinguish sometimes notes being played ..


Sorry If this is a stupid question I'm still learning

[hdiddy]

I can't anyway to approach this other than memorizing a bunch of tunes, knowing them in all keys, and knowing their heads in all keys already under your belt. And even then, I think you still need to know whatever head being called otherwise it's a total crapshoot. Without the melody you don't really have anything.

Which is why it's understandable that certain famous players refused to play tunes if they didn't already know the head or lyrics. I forgot exactly who but I know they were out there (Jimmy Rowles?)

[longfinger]

It's good when people who play together often, take the time to walk each other through new-to-them tunes.

Say at your next jam, you're friend says, "Hey, let's play SongX ", and you're like, "I don't know SongX, how does it go?"

Friend, "It goes like this..." and he plays the chords, the melody, and calls out the chord changes. He quickly explains it to you too, or if he does not, you summarize what he just showed you, "turnaround, descending 5ths, goes to the IV chord for the bridge... Got it. Let's play".

You'll actually remember things more learning that way. I know I do. Using a piano, a person can illuminate songs best (bass+chords+ melody), but it can be done on guitar too, and bass too if you can call out the chords and sing the melody.

Reading is great in that it lets us play, even perform, music we don't know, really quickly. Bad thing that goes with that, is we can read something 30 times, and the page is not there, we can't remember what was on it.

[Groove Doctor]

There's several skills required to this:
1- knowing basic scale, able to sing it and jump to any other note in that scale.
2- relative pitch: hearing and identifying intervals between notes being played.
3- hearing chord notes: sing each note when two or more notes are played together.
4- picking chord types: distinguish major from minor, maj7 from Dom7, inversions, diminished and augmented, etc.
5- identifying common chord sequences:
IIm-V7-Imaj7, I-VIm-IIm-V, Descending 5ths (or 4ths),
6- learning creative bass runs: descending semitones (C to G/B to C7/Bb to F/A, etc), ascending semitones (G to G#dim to Am).
7- connecting together these short chord sequences into one long chain of chords
eg. Play 1-6-2-5 twice, then C- C/E - F- F#dim, then 5-6-2-5-1.
At this point I only have to remember three groups of ideas for an 8 bar/16 chord progression.

Once you've got these 'basics' down, you will be shocked at how easy it is to remember songs you've already learned AND simply listening to new songs these things will begin to jump out at you.

If you just read charts or memorize chords without actually 'hearing' them and internalizing them, you could play your entire life and not develop this skill.

I learned steps 1-4 in my first year of lessons. Two years later I learned steps 5-7 from my cousin who learned from a Jazz pro. (Thanks Greg, thanks Benno). It's changed my life and hope someone else can benefit from what I've been taught.

[Groove Doctor]

Oh, and I sat down at the piano several times a week over a year or two learning to 'internalize' (develop my ear) and 'externalize' (first sing, then play bass) these concepts. It was slow to start with, but now 23 years later it's automatic!!

[Mike Goodbar]

For many standards, you definitely find patterns emerging from tune to tune, and it’s a matter of training your ear to hear these. For me it is helpful to think not of specific chord names in a certain key, but to think of Roman numerals, which makes it easier to play the same tune in different keys. For example, many standards start out on the tonic (I) and hang around the tonic using a I/vi/ii/V and will eventually move to the (IV), and the vehicle to get it to the IV will be a ii/V progression. Endings often comprise a ii/V to iii/VI back to ii/V/I. Of course there are tons of other examples, but that’s the idea. The trick is listen to a ton of tunes and have them in your head so when a leader calls something you’ve never played, at least the groundwork will be there. Its kind of like a spelling bee...you can never be sure which word they'll throw at you, but if you have a solid grasp of the spelling rules, etc., you can at least make an educated guess.

Also, whenever I listen to music, I’ll habitually try to outline the chord progression in my head, sometimes even thinking of where I’d put my fingers on the bass. When I get home, I’ll pull out the bass or sit down at the piano and see how close I was.

[HeadyVan Halen]

Yes it does take practice but here's a couple things that have helped me:
1.) Just listen to the chords first. Try not to think actual notes. Simplify it. "first chord is Ab, 2nd is Db so already I'm thinking I-IV.." Your mind should say "That's major--that's minor--etc."
2.) Knowing your common turn arounds will help. Like you said many, many popular tunes use the same structure. This way you can sometimes predict what's next.
3.) Listen to the singer/melody. Many times you can hear the singer 'pointing' to the next chord change with their voice.
4.) Practice it! The best way is turn on the radio (whatever genre you like) and learn the song before it goes off...I still do that when I get bored.

[JGoldberg]

It's fun to get together with a friend and quiz each other on ear-training if you are fortunate enough to have someone close by at your level. One person can sit at the piano and play intervals, chords, scales, and chord progressions while the other identifies what is being played.

[hdiddy]

One of my backcountry ski partners is a horn player that I perform with from time to time. During the hike up the mountain, we've taught eachother changes to tunes, dictating the progressions in roman numerals, and the relationships of all the progressions in the song. It's a pretty interesting exercise: it helps your own playing if you know concretely all the relationships and are able to verbalize them enough that another person could understand it.

[Groove Doctor]

Originally Posted by cire113

The problem is I can't ever really distinguish the actual chords or quality or even Root notes

Do you guys have any tips or suggestions for being able to hear changes better? Or does this just come from years of playing/practice ..

I always try to listen to bass
But man it's so hard to distinguish sometimes notes being played ..

Maybe you need to start on simpler songs - I started by learning 50's and 60's rock'n'roll. It has fewer chords (often only 3 or 4), changes chords less often, in simple keys, repeated chord patterns and bass lines that clearly outline the chord, etc which make it easier when you're starting.

Can you confidently identify the changes to these songs:
Great Balls of Fire
Blue Moon
Let It Be -Beatles
Mrs Robinson - Simon/Garfunkel

Then Simpler Jazz tunes:
Take the A Train
Mack The Knife
Get me to the church on time

(Let me know if you're beyond that or not)

[Pat Harris]

My biggest "light bulb" moment happened when I started hearing not just the chords, but their function. Once you can hear the function of each chord in the context of a tune, everything opens up and you realize that you can learn a ton of tunes really quickly because there are more similarities than differences between them.

[suraci]

If I were you I would study traditional harmony.
Whether from a school, or a book, or a private teacher.
Playing piano is vital for this as well.

This has to be a labor of love. If you love music, you will not view this as "work" or a "have to". Harmony is a fun exciting adventure.. Study it.

[Groove Doctor]

Originally Posted by Pat Harris

My biggest "light bulb" moment happened when I started hearing not just the chords, but their function. Once you can hear the function of each chord in the context of a tune, everything opens up and you realize that you can learn a ton of tunes really quickly because there are more similarities than differences between them.

Very interesting... can you elaborate on 'function' further?? There's an idea I don't know how to put into words, kinda along this line.

[suraci]

Funny, but I never think about function. but... I am not sure what you know and don't wish to insult your inteligence or level.
There is a diatonic system that works on a numbered system. Maybe to distinguish this numbered system from OTHER numbered systems found in music, they use Roman numerals.
So we have a I chord. In the key of eg C major, the I ( that is a Roman Numberal = I, and it stands for ONE also called the Tonic.)
The I chord is the Home of the Key that you are in. They are synonomous.
If in key of C maj The ONE chord is the Tonic chord or simply the Roman numeral I

I am sorry this sounds more complicated than it needs to be..
But ..

So we have I chord
In the KEY of C major, the I chord is a C major chord.
ii chord is d minor
iii chord is e minor
IV chord is F major
V chord G major
vi chord a minor
vii B dim


In Bb major
I chord is Bb chord
ii chord is C minor
iii D minor
IV Eb major
etc

As to the FUNCTIONs of harmony... it takes long study to get comfortable with harmony.
Just a sample:
I can start by saying The Tonic or the chord with the same identity as the Key Center is called I ("one" )
This chord is the Home, the center around which other chords function.
A V chord ( 5 ) most naturally goes or resolves to a I chord
A IV chord goes to V or I
ii goes to V most naturally
iii to vi

You may notice this the most COMMON chord progression is UP a FOURTH or down a FIFTH
eg I to IV
ii to V
iii to vi
V to I
vi to ii
all of the above are called "normal "chord progressions
up a fourth is normal
up a FIFTH is unusual I forgot the name I believe writer called it retrogression or retrograde going backwards sd to speak

That's just off the top of my head. One of the best ways to study harmony is classical harmony using the piano and writing and playing harmony exercises.

[Groove Doctor]

Very well explained. I had something else in mind (instead of 'function' I use the term scale degree).


I think about the sound or color or emotion or feeling of a chord or chord progression. I'll give examples:

eg. Major is happier/brighter, Minor is sadder/darker,
Maj7 & Maj9 chords have a 'pretty', soft sound, and Dom7th have a stronger sound.
A 6-9 chord has its own sound (all intervals are 5ths - CGDAE).
Suspended chords create a lighter tension, Diminished chords a heavier tension, etc.


eg. Cmaj7 to C#dim to Dm7
= a happy pretty chord, to a heavy tension chord, then somewhat release to a strong dark chord.
The C# passing note creates forward motion leading you to the next chord.
The chords climbing upwards also creates a lifting feeling, anticipation, a subtler form of building tension.

eg Dm7 to Dbmaj7 to Cmaj7 = a pleasant descent, like floating gently down to the ground.


I think about the emotion of what the music is communicating (lyrics, chords, tempo, rhythms). That often means really simple but very effective bass lines. I'm not playing notes, I'm communicating thru music.

I hope that makes sense

[suraci]

Perfect sense, and you communicated not only an uncommon "picture" of musical chords but also expressed better than I could
Bravo. And be my guest to share more of those perceptions about music

[Groove Doctor]

Originally Posted by Mike Goodbar

Also, whenever I listen to music, I’ll habitually try to outline the chord progression in my head, sometimes even thinking of where I’d put my fingers on the bass. When I get home, I’ll pull out the bass or sit down at the piano and see how close I was.

This is a fantastic way to keep your ear sharp AND honing your ability to remember and play what you hear.

To get better at this, try transcribing songs - headphones, pencil and paper. Working it out for yourself will sharpen your skills and writing it down will reinforce it and etch it into your mind. It's slow at first but guaranteed to work.

[gerry grable]

Originally Posted by Pat Harris

My biggest "light bulb" moment happened when I started hearing not just the chords, but their function. Once you can hear the function of each chord in the context of a tune, everything opens up and you realize that you can learn a ton of tunes really quickly because there are more similarities than differences between them.

My great light bulb moment was when a famous piano player told me that to make great bass lines you must "Know your chords. . . but study counterpoint."

[suraci]

Originally Posted by gerry grable

My great light bulb moment was when a famous piano player told me that to make great bass lines you must "Know your chords. . . but study counterpoint."

Amen to that famous piano player.
I studied both harmony and counterpoint. and they are both important. harmony without "an eye on" ( ear ) counterpoint is very limited.
. Counterpoint is seeing the individual notes as little melodic ideas, harmony is seeing the, well, chord progressions.
One is vertical the other linear.. they work together.

[Groove Doctor]

Originally Posted by suraci

Counterpoint is seeing the individual notes as little melodic ideas;
Harmony is seeing the chord progressions.
One is vertical the other linear.. they work together.

Well put. I grew up in church singing hymns in 4 part harmony. I liked to sing a different part for each verse.

Later playing piano I would think these 4 individual lines simultaneously and would play them together. It all just 'made sense' to me. This was before I studied chord theory so I guess I learned things the opposite to conventional way. I always go back to thinking and hearing counterpoint, playing what I 'hear' and not what I 'think'. I have to make myself think in chords and scales.