Hearing inversions

[dodgy_ian]

Trying to really learn the sound of inversions at the mo - I do this best by finding a melody that I know with an inversion in and then using that as a reference point. Have found a few for the basic major triad inversions but
so far I'm struggling with the minor inversions (1st and 2nd) to find any tunes that contain them in the melody line/other prominent bits of the tune - anyone got any ideas?

And if anyones got any ideas for maj7/min7 etc inversions that would be great too.


Thanks

Ian

[Ed Fuqua]

ROGER DODGER - rather than trying to find "references" out in the real world, I really think the best way to go about this is to get a keyboard (even a cheap little one) and start playing and singing these in an organized and progressive fashion. Because it's not about memorizing, it's about internalizing.

I can go over a procedure that's working for me, if you'd like.

[frichter]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

I can go over a procedure that's working for me, if you'd like.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm interested.

[philip sirois]

I'm game too. You know I'm all about the Fuqua thing (seriously)

BTW Ed, I think it's time I checked you out again. Any gigs coming up? Would love to hear you.

phil

[dodgy_ian]

ok, sounds good to me. I am usng a keyboard as part of my practise routine - the melody/song bit is just to help me 'hear'/internalise the sounds of these inversions...its worked a real treat for intervals.....however 'Im open to any suggestions so fire away!

[Evan_S._Brown]

The interval between the lowest note and the highest note of the chord will be the easiest way to find out an inversion.
for a major chord
A fifth for root position, a minor 6th for first and a major 6th for second inversion
for a minor chord
a fifth for root position, a major 6th for first and a minor 6th for second inversion.

However in classical musical analysis the inversion is always stated with the lowest bass note. Which is quite relevant for us bass players however this is only for classical not pop or jazz.

also use musictheory.net which is an online aural trainer which has everything to help you with this problem and more. you can also download the program. It really helped me get through musicianship in university. But i just checked then and it also does inversions and things. you should definately try it, it will help you with what you need

[bassbuddie]

I can't wait to read your suggestion ED.

[Ed Fuqua]

OK, so the first thing to remember is - this is a SLOW and PROGRESSIVE concept. You build a good strong foundation before moving on to the next exercise. This means either have your teacher add this to the work you are doing with them so that they can monitor your progress or record yourself and be AS OBJECTIVE AS YOU POSSIBLY CAN and not let yourself skate on anything just to keep moving forward. The temptation to "Oh why don't I just start HERE instead of at the beginning and save a bunch of time" doesn't really save you any time because you haven't built the foundation.
DUNGEON - to me it's the difference between having to see a red hexagonal thing on a post at an intersection that's got some writing on it and just knowing that it's a STOP sign and I should stop.
So starting at the beginning
1. INTERVALS IN THE FIRST OCTAVE
A. find the lowest note you can comfortably sing on the keyboard, that's going to be your "home" note. Let's say (for the sake of this example) that your note is C an octave below middle C.
B. make some "flash" cards (of you're doing this on your own) or get your teacher to randomly give you the second note, that is in the first octave, using the chromatic scale, up to the octave. So, given that your bottom note is C, your choices are Db/C#, D, D#/Eb, E, F. F#/Gb, G, G#/Ab, A, A#/Bb, B and C.
C Choose a card (or your teacher gives you a pitch). Play your home note (C) and the upper note (let's say the minor 6th, Ab) seperately, not in unison. So, BANG C then BANG Ab, right?
Now Play C again and sing the note. Without playing the Ab, sing that interval. Play C again, sing the Ab but this time after you SING the note, play the note on the piano. You want to pay attention to ANY adjustments you voice is making - did you need to bend up or down? Were you not hitting the pitch at all? etc. When you are singing the interval in tune and then play the note on the piano, it sounds like your voice just gets a little louder. When you get this "just a little louder" feeling and are singing all of your chromatic intervals IN TUNE, move to the second exercise which is.

MOVING BASS NOTE - instead of singing these against a constant bass note (your home note C), you have to sing every interval with a different bass note. So sitting at the keyboard, you say "I'm going to sing a minor third" (because you've made another set of flash cards with the intervals on them; if you are working with a teacher, they can randomly give you both the bottom note and the interval to sing) and sing the low note. You find that low note on the keyboard and then sing the minor third away from that note. Play the bottom, sing the top and then holding the top note, play it on the keyboard. Again, work till you have this in tune every time. Then the exercise is

IDENTIFYING INTERVALS - your teacher will play the interval in unison and hold it down. As that fades out, they will play it again and hold it down. WITHOUT VOCALIZING, identify the interval. If you are doing this yourself, you need to record yourself doing this (and after the second time when you hold it down fades out, you on the recording have to tell yourself what you just played). Which then becomes

SINGING THE INTERVAL THAT'S BEING HELD DOWN IN UNISON - it gets played once and you listen, the second time AFTER it fades, sing the bottom note then the top one. Then sing the bottom again and play the note to check it and then sing the top note and play it to check.

Then you run through the whole methodology again, but this time with intervals in the second octave. That is against your C note that is an octave below middle C, the other intervals instead of being BETWEEN your low note and middle C, they will be ABOVE middle C. This gets you working on tensions. Instead of C to E (a major third) you sing C to octave E (major 10th) etc. Which gets you to

TRIADS closed in root position - major, minor, diminished and augmented
CEG CEbG, CEbGb, CEG# and use the above methodology. Which gets you to

TRIADS closed in all inversions - C as root, C as third, C as fifth CEG, CEbAb, CFA etc
TRIADS open in root postion - CGE, CGEb, CGbEb, CG#E
TRIADS open in all inversions - C as root, then third , then fifth - CGE, CAbEb, CAF
as above.

That's about where I am now, this continues to 4 part chords (seventh chords) then 4 part with one tension, then 4 part with 2 tensions.

You get to a point where the triads lock in like a constellation or something, you aren't dealing with separate pitches or intervals, you are actually hearing the quality and color of the individual structure. Not "oh here's, the root." or "it's two major sixthes" or anything like that. You just hear it as a distinct and identifiable sound.

[bassbuddie]

Thank you so much Ed. I was waiting for something like that since a long time....

[chadspivey]

I go to a website called musicthery.net to test myself on hearing intervals and chords. There's also good-ear.com. Both sites are free.

[Jack Clark]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

IDENTIFYING INTERVALS - your teacher will play the interval in unison and hold it down. As that fades out, they will play it again and hold it down. WITHOUT VOCALIZING, identify the interval. If you are doing this yourself, you need to record yourself doing this . . .

I don't know if Ed would agree with this, but a pro bassist I know offered me a trick to do Ed's interval-identifying exercise by yourself without having to go to the trouble of recording it first. You get a couple of new, unsharpened yellow pencils with new erasers on them. Hold them by the tip of the non-eraser ends and, without looking at the keyboard, you press the keys down with the eraser tips. That way you can't feel what key(s) you're depressing. You can't even tell whether it's a black or white key if you don't probe around. Of course, if you're starting from a known note, you only need a pencil for the second one. This is really handy when you're walking by the piano and you just want to pause for a few seconds to test yourself.

Is Ed's system great, or what? Thanks for taking the trouble to give us this, Ed.

[pbass888]

ED Fuqua,


Thank you this is so use full for the beginning jazz student.

[raymondl3]

How about this for an exercise:
Record some random major and minor triads (root, 1st, and 2nd inversions) then
1. identify the tonality (major or minor), then 2. identify the the top note only (which you can usually hear by resolving it back to the root).
Example: 2nd inversion minor: 1. hear minor, 2. hear the minor 3rd on top resolving back to the root ala "Equinox."