Help me analyze Goodbye Porkpie Hat

[Fretloos]

Hey,
me and a friend are trying to learn goodbye prokpie hat (Charles Mingus, duh!) for a concours. But as I started analyzing it, the first chord already made me say ***. We're doing the version in Fm, but the first chord is an F7... Where does that come from? Is Charles using special scales, or hasn't it got anything to do with music theory, but he put the F7 in it because he thought it would sound better?
Please help.

[Ed Fuqua]

What do you know about functional harmony, moving key centers and secondary dominance?

[bassist14]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

secondary dominance?

.. do you need leather clothes and handcuffs for this?

[Fretloos]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

What do you know about functional harmony, moving key centers and secondary dominance?

Not much, I am only familiar with taking the chords and functions from the Major and the three common Minor scales (and their inventions) But I haven't got moving key centers yet...

[Ed Fuqua]

Well, that's kind of what most jazz tunes do. They may reference a key signature, but there's lots of modulations, use of secondary dominance (by using secondary dominants), false modulations, key center of the moment etc.

So even if you're doing the tune in F minor, that F7 chord is pointing to another key center. It's a lot to go into, and it's not really a good idea to start building the walls when you don't even have the foundation finished. If you are studying with anybody, you might want to start talking with them about working on functional harmony, if not you might want to start looking into theory classes at a local school. I'd grab a copy of Mark Levine's JAZZ THEORY book and start working through that...

[nypiano]

Originally Posted by Fretloos

Hey,
me and a friend are trying to learn goodbye prokpie hat (Charles Mingus, duh!) for a concours. But as I started analyzing it, the first chord already made me say ***. We're doing the version in Fm, but the first chord is an F7... Where does that come from? Is Charles using special scales, or hasn't it got anything to do with music theory, but he put the F7 in it because he thought it would sound better?
Please help.

It shouldn't make you go *** any more than an F blues tune written in Fmajor where the first chord is F7 which involves a chromatic change to the I chord. In the case of this tune it's really 2 things. The key signature almost assuredly comes from the F blues scale based melody. And F blues is based on Ab pentatonic which is the key sig of Ab. All the other chords are much more related to F minor than Fmajor.

In terms of sitting down with an analysis pen, keep in mind only that it's an F7 blues feeling tune with a feeling of meandering that has a strong sense of traveling to Bb and then coming back to F but not committing to it wholely and sometimes avoiding it. The meandering quality also is enhanced by slightly non-standard progressions that move in whole steps or minor 3rds or tritone sub motion (bV-I instead of I and then again I)

[Fretloos]

first of all, thanks for your responces

Originally Posted by nypiano

It shouldn't make you go *** any more than an F blues tune written in Fmajor where the first chord is F7

I guess that just shows my inexperience...
But I guess this song is way above my league theory-wise, luky for us the solo's are on normal blues changes (right?)

Where this all started is that the friend I'm doing this with is a guitarist, but he has even less theory knowledge then I. So he asked me to figure the chord changes out for him

So can anyone suggest me some good recordings of the song (already got the two 'official' versions (of course) and one by McLaughlin and Hellborg)???

[bassist14]

there is a great version of pork pie hat on the cd "due" with charlie mariano and dieter ilg
http://www.amazon.de/Due-Dieter-Mari...e=UTF8&s=music
i have seen them live, great concert

[Ed Fuqua]

The definitive version is off the composer's record, AH UM.

[MonetBass]

Don't know if this would help, but Stanley Clarke does a version of it on his If This Bass Could Only Talk album.

[nypiano]

Originally Posted by Fretloos

first of all, thanks for your responces



I guess that just shows my inexperience...
But I guess this song is way above my league theory-wise, luky for us the solo's are on normal blues changes (right?)

Where this all started is that the friend I'm doing this with is a guitarist, but he has even less theory knowledge then I. So he asked me to figure the chord changes out for him

So can anyone suggest me some good recordings of the song (already got the two 'official' versions (of course) and one by McLaughlin and Hellborg)???

Well given your chosen screen name, I would've thought you came through it via the Jaco/Joni Mitchell version from 1979

Re: over the head. Well, I just mean that when it comes to blues, it kind of bucks the key centered thing generally when the Tonic chord is represented by a dominant 7.

Re: playing over blues changes. No. You play over the changes of the song. The best thing to do this would be to get the melody totally under your fingers and in your system. And memorize the changes. This way it keeps the form in your head and the feeling of the changes with melody in the back of your mind.

Another trick is to take home base, the F blues scale and figure out how the changes mesh against and which blues scale notes you should lean on and which ones you should avoid or change depending on the harmony you're on at that moment. Then integrate chord specific arpeggios from the changes along with that. This is also a good way to: get off bad notes, still be grounded in the blues and introduce some jazz phrases

[Fretloos]

thanks for the tips
that version by Toni and Jaco is what I am desperatly looking for, my teacher suggested it to me, but I couldn't find it yet


But again with the first chord, where I got confused, there is an Ab in the melody, but a A in the chord... Could you explain that?

[nypiano]

Originally Posted by Fretloos

thanks for the tips
that version by Toni and Jaco is what I am desperatly looking for, my teacher suggested it to me, but I couldn't find it yet


But again with the first chord, where I got confused, there is an Ab in the melody, but a A in the chord... Could you explain that?

The album is available digitally on Itunes and musicmatch so not sure why you would have trouble finding it. Unless you were looking for "toni mitchell" it's "joni" ..

The Ab is merely jaco's favorite note on the dominant chord 7the #9. Which he often does with harmonics--and several times over this very chord. F7#9. Until you get to extended tones 9,11,13 and their flat, sharp variants you will be perplexed.

On this track I believe they add some extended changes to accomodate some lyrics

[Fretloos]

I'm talking in general about that Ab but you do make a point, so that Ab (the one in the first measure first beat) should 'theoreticaly' be a G#?

[nypiano]

Originally Posted by Fretloos

I'm talking in general about that Ab but you do make a point, so that Ab (the one in the first measure first beat) should 'theoreticaly' be a G#?

Theoretically yes, actually no.

And to boot both versions, Ah Um and Joni Mitchell's versions are not in F minor at all but Eb major. I looked at what I deemed to be a reliable Mingus fakebook and it's confirmed. He notates the 9th as Gb not F#. The bottom line is it's an Eb blues based tune on top with chord changes that can deviate from that.

Plus Joni's version is more faithful to anything you are using for sheet music. My appraisal of an "extra section" is incorrect. There is an extra solo section of 24 bars of changes that is missing from (many) fakebook versions. She in fact is copping a great deal of the original Ah Um saxophone solo--or copping as much as she can over those changes.
The bottom line... Listen! Fakebooks can put things in your head about tunes that aren't really there. And sometimes the players will do slightly different things than written. For example the original calls for Db7sus to Eb7 but the piano player never plays it (what your understanding as Eb7 F7). In Joni's version Herbie Hancock however plays the Db7sus chord.

[Gornick]

I was just going to mention that Ah Um's changes for the tenor solo is stripped down from the head changes. and it is in Eb, not F.

interestingly, the live version on YouTube from the 70's with Mingus, and Gerry Mulligan is in E. they stick to the head changes for the solos.

watching that is very interesting, where the horns come in to play the head out, and Mingus strongly suggests he has more to say, the horns all back out for him... beautiful...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88RCJ4fGJk4

I am not sure where F comes from in the RealBook.

[crookedfingers]

Also, Charles McPherson has a great version where they solo over the head changes. I didn't think it would work but it was quite moving.

[fcleff]

There is a version on Mingus, Mingus, Mingus, Mingus that is one of the best I have ever heard. Only thing is, on that album they call it 'Theme for Lester Young'.

[Ed Fuqua]

Pres' signature chapeau was the porkpie hat, see below.

[fcleff]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

Pres' signature chapeau was the porkpie hat, see below.

Right. But if you don't know that you won't catch the title change. Great pic of LY.