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Music Theory [DB] Chords, bass lines, melody, intervals, scales, modes, etc.


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  #21  
Old 01-19-2007, 12:59 PM
Kam Kam is offline
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Originally Posted by jazzbassnerd View Post
For the second part, I'll take your word for it, but I still feel like we don't get these intervalic relationships to stand out while performing. Yes, they are rehearsed, and yes, we can hear them, but I question whether when I go to hear an orchestra play Brahms that they are really able to adjust all of these intervals.
I'd say you absolutely can get the relationships to stand out when performing. Example: When I play in a trio with horn and drums, I can make my 10th chord double stops extra sweet by lowering that third a touch. When keys or guitar get thrown in, I'm constantly adjusting to their equal temperment until I get comfortable. It's a strange dynamic that I wish I would have known about earlier in life, that's for sure.
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Last edited by Kam : 01-20-2007 at 02:52 PM.
  #22  
Old 01-20-2007, 12:27 AM
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A fish has more scales.


...sorry about that.
  #23  
Old 01-20-2007, 05:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Bassist4Life View Post

Um, okay... There are 15 major scales, our ears hear 12. My answer is based on what I learned in college. I got my degree in music education. I'm an orchestra director and my students have a scale checklist that includes all 15 major scales. It's fun to talk about all the enharmonic options for scales and how a major scale is a formula that could be built off an infinite number of pitches; but at the end of the day, there are 15.
Could you please put in this thread the scale checklist that you give your students? I have tried to figure this out, but I come up with 17. This is useing double names for the flat/sharp keys.:

C G D A E B F# Gb Db C# Ab G# Eb D# Bb A# F

Am I missing some harmonic point of reference?
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  #24  
Old 01-20-2007, 06:36 AM
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You need to count the keys. Look at the circle of 4ths and 5ths.



Cycle of 4ths: C F Bb Eb Ab Db Gb Cb

Cycle of 5ths: C G D A E B F# C#
  #25  
Old 01-20-2007, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by bassist1962 View Post
Could you please put in this thread the scale checklist that you give your students? I have tried to figure this out, but I come up with 17. This is useing double names for the flat/sharp keys.:

C G D A E B F# Gb Db C# Ab G# Eb D# Bb A# F

Am I missing some harmonic point of reference?
Freddels beat me to it. Thanks.

Joe
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  #26  
Old 01-20-2007, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by jazzbassnerd View Post
um, Gb isn't used??
Yeah, it's only used here in Rochester.
  #27  
Old 01-20-2007, 05:33 PM
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Wow, I posted this to try and see what my music teacher was saying. To get a 15 or 12 answer but its funny how it sparked this intense musical theory argument with different view points and equally arguable statements. It is all very interesting and Its even more interesting in the original question that I started with. So very interesting.
  #28  
Old 01-21-2007, 12:16 PM
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This thread is driving me mad! I woke and thought about in the middle of last night!
I'm going with the 15 scales and putting the double sharp & flat ones aside.
When I practise, it's always around the cycle so, practically, for me, there are 12. I normally practise Dd major (instead of C#), but I can easily visualise it as C# Major. I must admit that I prefer F# over Gb, though.
In the end, for me, it's about listening.
Listening to how I fit with other instruments tends to be a 'feel' thing.
I have heard recordings of me playing out of tune, so I take intonation very, very seriously... as I do playing in time.
  #29  
Old 01-21-2007, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by jallenbass View Post
You could make the argument that there is one major scale and it can be played in any key.
Good argument John. I think the actual question should be 'How many different key signatures are there?'.
These types of things are why I don't think too much about technical stuff, and prefer to just play.
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  #30  
Old 01-23-2007, 06:15 PM
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Post 12 vs 15? I know this guy, JS Bach, and he says...

A fish may have more scales... ... but... you can't tune-a-fish. *

Lloccmttocs, it's a good exercise to think about how many major scales there are. Just like thinking about how many discreet augmented triads exist , and how many fully-diminished tetra-chords exist.

One can make an argument for the number of major scales on any number of grounds, even just semantics. Whether the number is right or wrong - who cares. The real question is: how useful is the information? This is what might get lost in a bad theory class or discussion:

Music theory is a collective methodology meant to serve the hearing of music.

It's not like "real science", which attempts to describe nature by a set of immutable laws. Nor is it a legal code where a technicality can trump common sense.

With that in mind, let's refer to Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier. He wrote two books, each with 24 preludes and fugues. The 24 is because he writes one in each major key and one in each minor key. 12 + 12 = ......

Now, how you feel about Bach is your business. Just 'cuz he does it one way doesn't mean you gotta bend over and take it from him. His way is not the only right way. But his way is amazing. And most of Western performers and musicologists agree with that, and have based their entire studies on the foundations of his tonal thinking. And if you want to understand them, study him. Other notable composers who have written etudes in groups of 12, out of homage to Bach:

debussy
liszt
chopin op10, op.15
scriabin op 8


Also imagine what other composers would say about the topic:
The 2nd viennese school virutually removes all enharmonic significance. Forte notation describes pitch classes with 12 numerals.
Messain, deb, ravel, and the french spectralists would not remotely consider there to be 15 major scales in 15 major keys.
Scriabin would say there are 12, and each one has a color.
Cage would hold up 12 car keys, jingle them, and say, "Listen!"
Ligeti would say there are 11.9999 major scales.

Anyway - want to understand the significance of the major scale as it's understood in western music? Start with Bach's WTC - it's more valuable than any arguement on 12 vs. 15.



PS:
Temperments cannot be ignored, but usually play a more local role, as in: where to place the third of a chord. Temperments are not generally useful when talking about large scale harmonic organization. At least, according to bruckner, mahler, or wagner.


Don't argue all this with your band teacher - it's likely not to elucidate the matter, and it will be harder to skip class later on. If he says 15, just write 15 on the quiz.






btw, the *functional* answer is 12.

If one wants to count enharmonic scales on a technicality, that's fine with me. But the number 15 makes no sense to me. It has to be unbounded if you want to play fair. From the key of G#, if you modulate to the V, you're in D#. Modulate again to the V and you're in A#, again to the V you're in E#, B#, F##, C## - so where does it stop? (based on the premise that, due to tempermants, "E# is not the same note as F-natural", etc..)




Oh wait, ok. Let me say one more thing. One plausible reason for notating something in F-double-sharp Major (a "silly" key signature), would be to clue the performer into the idea that the composer is writing that passage as the secondary dominant (fifth) of the fifth of E#. (E# -> B# -> F##) This is entirely reasonable if you were in the development/variation/B-section of a piece in G# Major (a SERIOUS key signature ). The F-double-sharp implies to the performer the context of the scale. For all intents and purposes, in western music practiced by bach/beethoven/mozart/brahms/etc/etc/etc/etc, this is the exact same scale as G Major. The context (for example, where it is leading: building tension vs releasing tension, etc), and thus the _expressive_ value might be different, but it's the same scale.







*Trombipulation

Last edited by Sevitzky : 01-23-2007 at 06:29 PM. Reason: A plausible reason for F-double-sharp
  #31  
Old 01-25-2007, 01:36 AM
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That wore me out, but well done!
  #32  
Old 01-25-2007, 08:35 PM
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verbose

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...I mean, a job.
  #33  
Old 01-26-2007, 05:07 AM
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there are 12 scales. 15 ways to name them. With the whole temperament argument---> who cares.. it's all in the mind. Db is C#.
  #34  
Old 05-28-2007, 10:52 PM
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I'll argue that there is one major scale with 12 transpositions (and 12 only if we're talking functional tonality).

I'll also argue that there are 15 written key signatures.

And I'll politely shake my head at the guy that said contemporary composers probably write in F double-sharp major.

  #35  
Old 05-29-2007, 06:41 AM
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Well said.
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  #36  
Old 05-29-2007, 06:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jallenbass View Post
You could make the argument that there is one major scale and it can be played in any key.
Exactly. I don't get the point of this whole discussion.
Why don't you ask how many dorian, or half-whole step, or 5th modus of melodic minor scales exist? Or how many minor chords exist?
What's the sense of this topic?

How many strings have a chamber orchestra?
How old is the captain?
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  #37  
Old 06-04-2007, 02:31 PM
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I've got a question for those who claim 15. Why are the enharmonic scales of Ab and G# more valid than say Eb and D#? In each case the flat key is "easier" (less flats) than the sharp key, therefore the flat key is used (in most cases). I can understand what Sevitzky said about using enharmonics for the sake of composing, but that aside why include only two of the "less logical" equivalents?

I would think that the functional number would be 12 and the logical number would be 13-because Gb and F# have the same number of sharps and flats.
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  #38  
Old 07-27-2007, 06:45 AM
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Sorry to drag this back up

I think the question "how many major scales are there" is not the best way to phrase what it really wants to ask, not leastways because it leads to "philosophical debate" (as in, "careful in that pasture, or you'll get philosophical debate on your shoes") like we've seen here. I think the real query at hand is "how many major keys are there". Thing is, as another poster mentioned, you can build a major scale off of, say, G#. But there's not (to the best of my knowledge) a key of G# major, presumably because there's no key signature with a double sharp in it. I guess there could be if you wanted there to be, but in conventional practice you don't see it.
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