Go Back   TalkBass Forums > Double Bass Forums > Music Theory [DB]
Register Rules/FAQ/CUP Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Music Theory [DB] Chords, bass lines, melody, intervals, scales, modes, etc.


Supporting Membership
Thank You

Latest Supporting Member
Donate to Upgrade Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
  #1  
Old 07-26-2003, 05:50 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Bronx, NY
Love for Sale

The new Theory Forum seems the right place to air out a little theory question that's nagging me. In the Cole Porter standard Love for Sale, all the fake books and hand-written chord sheets I've seen show the tonic chord(3rd bar) as a minor. Why? The melody opens with octave, 6 5... no hint of a minor tonality. In fact the natural 6 strongly suggests major chord to me. Also, the key signature is always the major. (i.e. the song is usually in Bflat the key sig is 2 flat not 5 flats) But the Bbflat chords are all minor! My ear tells me that Bb has a major third. What does Talkbass Nation say?
Sign in to disble this ad
  #2  
Old 07-27-2003, 09:19 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Hampshire, UK
The major 6th needn't imply major tonality at all, it could imply melodic minor.
__________________
There is no escape from the fortress of the moles!
  #3  
Old 07-27-2003, 11:40 AM
Chris Fitzgerald's Avatar
Student of Life
Forum Administrator
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Louisville, KY
That's an interesting question, especially the key signature part. I think it's important to remember before going too far into questions such as this that purpose of music theory is to have a tool that acts as a scientific reference to information about what music has often done in the past. It's easy to get into hot water pretty quickly if theory starts to be viewed as a set of rules describing what music should do.

Having said that, I think that part of what makes this progression effective is the fact that it defies the expectation that it sets up by using the deceptive resolution. Other tunes, like Porter's own "Night and Day" and McCartney's "Fool On The Hill" do the same thing with mode mixture to great effect, and in all three of these cases, there is some kind of reference to this mode mixture in the lyric that accompanies the resolution. In the case of "Love For Sale", I think the juxtaposition is extremely effective...after all, the tune does have a fairly dark subject, no?


"Love.....for Sale
Appetizing young Love...for sale
Love that's fresh and still unspoiled
Love that's only slightly soiled
Love for Sale

Who will buy?
Who would like to sample my supply?
Who's prepared to pay the price
For a trip to paradise?
Love for Sale

Let the poets pipe of love
In their childish way
I know every type of love
Better far than they
If you want the thrill of love
I've been through the mill of love
Old love, new love
Every love but true love....."



I mean, jeez, if that isn't a seriously dark lyric, then what is? Still, good question. It'll be interesting to see what folks have to say about this.
__________________
Wherever you go, there you are.
chrisfitzgeraldmusic.com
  #4  
Old 07-27-2003, 02:15 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Bronx, NY
dark love

Chris, that's another reason the tune sings to me in a major tonality. Yes the lyrics are dark and ultimately pathetic. But on the surface it's a sales pitch, a jingle. So the juxtaposition is pretty sophisticated, a la Porter. So Chris, which Bb do you hear? And has anyone here seen a copy of the original sheet music and can tell us what chord is written for the tonic?
  #5  
Old 07-27-2003, 02:58 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Ridgewood, NJ
It depends...

I have a copy of what I presume to be the piano transcription used for copyright filing. This was the common medium at the time. Warner bought the copyright and publishes it. Fake books are another story.
Basically, the song is AABA form (expanded).
First A: 2 bars Eb, 2 Bbmi, 2 Eb, 2 Bbmi
2nd A: 2 bars Eb, 2 BbMa, 2 Eb, 2 BbMa
Last A: 2 bars Eb, 2 Bbmi, 2 Eb, 2 BbMa

Go figure. But this is a quintessential Porter touch. The subtleties of his changes are routinely smashed on records. In "Get Out Of Town", an ABAB tune, the first A is in G minor; the second A is G major. I get alot of arguments when I play it that way.

"Love For Sale" finishes in Bb major; key signature is 2 flats.

Side notes on Love
1.In the landmark album "Somethin' Else," Sam Jones plays D natural throughout. In a blindfold test in Downbeat, Ron Carter publicly lambasted the bassist for playing the major third throughout what he considered a minor tune. As I listen again today, I hear it usually on 4 going to the Eb chord; an argument could be made that its function is less the spelling of the current chord and more as a leading tone to the next chord. I don't buy it. I think he just wanted to avoid the shifts to get Db and back to Eb.
2. (On their CD)On the head, Kenny Barron and Peter Washington play Bb major at all times, to fit a harmonic device used in the intro. When they get to the 2nd improvised chorus, they go to Bb minor throughout.

Sorry you asked, Fred?
__________________
Certified to teach the Alexander Technique. see donaldhigdon.com

Last edited by Don Higdon : 07-27-2003 at 03:16 PM.
  #6  
Old 07-28-2003, 10:28 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Bronx, NY
Glad I asked. So with the same melody Porter harmonised 1st A section minor, 2nd major? Does that make me half right? Probably half wrong.I gotta root for Sam Jones vs Ron Carter anyway.
There's no doubt Cole Porter chose an ambiguous tonality for the melody.He was a famous bisexual so I suppose it's fitting his harmony goes both ways.
  #7  
Old 07-28-2003, 10:49 AM
Chris Fitzgerald's Avatar
Student of Life
Forum Administrator
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Louisville, KY
Re: dark love

Quote:
Originally posted by Fred W
Chris, that's another reason the tune sings to me in a major tonality. Yes the lyrics are dark and ultimately pathetic. But on the surface it's a sales pitch, a jingle. So the juxtaposition is pretty sophisticated, a la Porter.

Agreed. I like the juxtaposition of the sales pitch in the lyric with the "dark underbelly" of the harmony.

So Chris, which Bb do you hear?
I hear the Bb as a minor chord, but probably only because I've played it that way about a thousand times with singers. I wouldn't have a problem resolving to major if it was in the chart, or if I heard the rest of the band doing it consistently.
__________________
Wherever you go, there you are.
chrisfitzgeraldmusic.com
  #8  
Old 07-28-2003, 11:27 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Ridgewood, NJ
There's an old story about Ben Webster, in the middle of playing a beautiful chorus on a ballad, suddenly stopping. Asked why he stopped, Webster is alleged to have said "I forgot the words."
__________________
Certified to teach the Alexander Technique. see donaldhigdon.com
Reply



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Follow TalkBass on Twitter   Visit TalkBass on Facebook  

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:41 PM.




Copyright ©2011 Talk Music Group Inc. All right reserved.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.12
Copyright ©2000 - 2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.