multiple time signatures-simultaniously?

[paradigm_shift]

I was wondering(if and) what the correct term would be for a piece in multiple time signatures.ie.simultaniously

Eg.6/4 time bass 3/4 guitar 4/4 drums whatever...

Is there a term for it? Playing with polyrhthmic ideas made me think about it-though its purely a theoretical thing for me at this stage

[rockwarnick]

good question...wish i had an answer. im interested. someone help us out.

[velvetkevorkian]

If the different parts are in different time sigs but the same tempo (ie 6/4 drums and 4/4 bass, two seperate parts that line up every 24 quarter notes) that is a polyrhythm.

If the different parts are in the same time signature but with different rhythmic groupings (ie a bar of 4/4 with a guitar playing straight 8ths and bass playing triplet 8ths) that is a crossrhythm.

[paradigm_shift]

My understanding of a polyrhythm was more to your definintion of a cross rhythm.Cheers velvetkevorkian

I assume with a name like that your a bit of a syl fan?

[Ed Fuqua]

VK - you sure about that? A polyrythm is two different time feels occurring in the same space (in the same way a polychord is two different chords occuring in the same harmonic space). Rather than two different time signatures in which the quarter note stays the same (like in your example) and then, a polyrhythm is two different time signatures/feels in the same bar/timeframe. Like having a drummer play in 4/4 (qnote =60bpm) and in the same amount of elapsed time the bass player plays in 7/4 (qnote=app94bpm [if I did my math right]). Not lining up down the road, all at the same time. Poly=many.

[rockwarnick]

Originally Posted by paradigm_shift

I assume with a name like that your a bit of a syl fan?

and with a name like yours can we assume youre an LTE fan?

[paradigm_shift]

Originally Posted by rockwarnick

and with a name like yours can we assume youre an LTE fan?

Possibly..but seeing that I cant figure out what LTE is short for I would guess not...

[Gadolinium]

Originally Posted by paradigm_shift

Possibly..but seeing that I cant figure out what LTE is short for I would guess not...

Presumably Liquid Tension Experiment...They rock this world

[velvetkevorkian]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

VK - you sure about that? A polyrythm is two different time feels occurring in the same space (in the same way a polychord is two different chords occuring in the same harmonic space). Rather than two different time signatures in which the quarter note stays the same (like in your example) and then, a polyrhythm is two different time signatures/feels in the same bar/timeframe. Like having a drummer play in 4/4 (qnote =60bpm) and in the same amount of elapsed time the bass player plays in 7/4 (qnote=app94bpm [if I did my math right]). Not lining up down the road, all at the same time. Poly=many.

Ed- I would call that a cross rhythm. I'm pretty sure about this, but as ever I stand to be corrected

Paradigm_shift- well spotted

edit- just looked this up (from Wikipedia, so a pinch of salt is advised as ever)...
"A simple example of a polyrhythm is 3 evenly-spaced notes against 2, with the 3-beat pattern being faster than the 2-beat pattern, so that they both take the same amount of time. Other simple polyrhythms are 3:4, 5:4, 7:4, etc. Where one of the parts involves an irrational rhythm, the resulting rhythm could be said to be an "irrational polyrhythm"

Another form of polyrhythm, which might also be termed polymeter, would be phrasing to suggest a different meter than the one being played by the rest of the ensemble. A common example of this in jazz would be phrasing quarter notes in groupings of 3 to suggest 3/4 time while the ensemble plays in 4/4. Compare with hemiola (not a polyrhythm)."

Personally I've always distinguished between crossrhythms and polyrhythms as I stated above. Ed, how would you describe what I call a polyrhythm?

[Clay_Bass]

I'm 999.9 percent sure ed was right. I've only ever heard a polyrhym described as multiple time signatures played in the same space.
A hemiola that you talked about would be one person or a section or whatever playing in a way that suggested say 3/4 over another person or group that stayed in say 4/4. You hear hemiolas all the time in jazz and probably dont really notice it most of the time.

I havent really heard the term cross rhythm very much so I dont have a good attempt to define that for you, but what I generally call the O.P.'s interest is just layered time signatures. I'm sure there is some more specific name for it. Also to the O.P. you did mean they're playing that way for extended periods of time right? If it was just for a few measures I would call it a hemiola.

[Ed Fuqua]

Originally Posted by velvetkevorkian

Ed- I would call that a cross rhythm. I'm pretty sure about this, but as ever I stand to be corrected

Paradigm_shift- well spotted

edit- just looked this up (from Wikipedia, so a pinch of salt is advised as ever)...
"A simple example of a polyrhythm is 3 evenly-spaced notes against 2, with the 3-beat pattern being faster than the 2-beat pattern, so that they both take the same amount of time. Other simple polyrhythms are 3:4, 5:4, 7:4, etc. Where one of the parts involves an irrational rhythm, the resulting rhythm could be said to be an "irrational polyrhythm"

Another form of polyrhythm, which might also be termed polymeter, would be phrasing to suggest a different meter than the one being played by the rest of the ensemble. A common example of this in jazz would be phrasing quarter notes in groupings of 3 to suggest 3/4 time while the ensemble plays in 4/4. Compare with hemiola (not a polyrhythm)."

Personally I've always distinguished between crossrhythms and polyrhythms as I stated above. Ed, how would you describe what I call a polyrhythm?

Just as two different time signatures that hook up. Becuase the quarter note is the same, right? Rhythmically, nothing that is happening in 6/4 is different than in 4/4 EXCEPT the number of beats per bar. So it's not really "poly" anything.

As far as phrasing 4 so it sounds like 3, that's still 4 so I wouldn't call it anything except maybe deceptive phrasing. If what you've done is taken the half note in 4/4 and turned it into a dotted quarter in 3/4 you have actually done a metric modulation and created a new time feel (i.e. quarter note = a new bpm). Another Fun Thing is to take 3/4, phrase in dotted quarters, treat the dotted quarters as half notes and then double time that.

[christoph h.]

i would name it as follows:

POLYRHYTHM: 3/4 and 7/4 played in the same amount of time (resulting in different length for the 1/4 note). they're played AGAINST each other.

CROSSRHYTHM: 3/4 and 7/4 with the 1/4 note having the same length for each. so one is played OVER the other.

[velvetkevorkian]

Hmmm well I can't say I'm not confused now. Triplets against a straight rhythm has always been referred to as a crossrhythm IME; unfortunately I don't think I've ever had to refer to (what I would call) a polyrhythm so far in public.

I guess I'll have to go with the majority verdict on this one although I still say you're all mad.

edit- could this be a quirk of British musical terminology?

[DocBop]

Steve Vai has a nice little article on the topic with lots of examples.

Steve Vai on Polyrhythms

[mcnaire2004]

Last couple years in the CYS we had a few pieces in multiple time signatures (can't remember which though). I think it was 3/8, 6/8, 3/4, 2/2, and 1/4. Several combinations of at least three of these happend to us last year. Our conductor usualy conducted it as if it were 2/2 or 1/4

[Zachmozach]

Over the last six months I've had some afro-cuban percussion lessons specifically on bata drums. Really interesting stuff dealing with a lot of polyrythmic toques. Anyway, I've come to realize that there really is no difference between 6 and 2 etc. It's all in how you group the beats. Most of the time we would be playing 3 against 2, and after a while you just get used to zoning in on the pulse and not the individual beats. That and this tradition is where clave comes from and clave is relativaly the same in all meters. 2, 4, 6, 12, or whatever. It's different in really odd meters of course, but that's it.

I know the Flecktones have a song where there all playing in different time signatures so that eventually you get a certain multiple and they all line up just as soon as you hit that denominator. However when you listen to it all you hear is pulse.

[David Kaczorowski]

Originally Posted by Zachmozach

I've come to realize that there really is no difference between 6 and 2 etc. It's all in how you group the beats. Most of the time we would be playing 3 against 2, and after a while you just get used to zoning in on the pulse and not the individual beats.

Haha! Right on, brother. To take your example further: 2,3,4,6,9,12 are all related in a very simple way and swing nicely together.

To the original question, if they hook-up it's polyrhythm, if they don't they're cross-rhythms.

[JHL]

Playing simultaneous rhythms in more than one time signature is called a polymeter.