Outside Changes

[Jace The Bass]

Ok the Question is
Although I've got a good knowledge in chords scales etc Im having trouble of playing a flat sound you know playing a out of context licks
I suppose after playing inside licks and phrases after a while I tend to get bored of it after a while'.
Is there any tricks or unknown scales or is it the chromatic (target) sort of approach

Ps I have these scales down ( and still working on them )

Major Minor Melodic minor Harmonic minor all penatonics Blues all chords in all 12 keys

Any Help would be appreciated
Cheers JACE

[Sam Sherry]

There's no trick. As musicians we have to play what we hear and hear what we play. Anything else is noise in the guise of music.

Listen to folks doing what you want to try. Figure out what they're doing and try it. Sounds short? Work's long.

[Don Higdon]

Originally Posted by Jace The Bass

Im having trouble of playing a flat sound you know playing a out of context licks
I suppose after playing inside licks and phrases after a while I tend to get bored of it after a while'.
Is there any tricks or unknown scales or is it the chromatic (target) sort of approach JACE

I don't understand what you think you're saying.

[Paul Warburton]

Ditto....Are you a bit confused?
If there were unknown scales, nobody would know 'em.

[Jace The Bass]

Originally Posted by Don Higdon

I don't understand what you think you're saying.

Opps my fault perhaps I didnt explain clearly
Take for example Thelinouis Monk the sound that he was able to convey or playing out of key ie ( Say we have a ii-v-i in the key of Bb with each chord lasting a bar each C - F -Bb so instead of playing in the right key I wanted to become familiar with dissonant sounds or simply playing in the wrong key in otherwords
Now I'm starting to confuse myself anyway I hope that makes it clearier

Maybe I should just play my favourite licks in the wrong key to get started I guess

[Paul Warburton]

HOLY ****! Thelinouis would be turning in his grave.
Don't you belong on the other side?

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by Jace The Bass

Is there any tricks or unknown scales or is it the chromatic (target) sort of approach

I agree with what everybody else has said so far; but if we are talking about playing "out" - then I did attend a sort of clinic on this, with Julian Siegel (Sax player), where he was demonstrating some tricks with a piano player.

So - they would take a standard and the pianist played the changes, as he would normally - then Julian demonstrated playing a solo, while he imagined that the chords were moving at either half the speed of the pianist or at twice the speed etc. - or in some places he would just play a turn-around throughout. So, he demonstrated various permutations, where he was audibly "out" - but his solo had a compelling internal logic that made it sound convincing!

I don't know if this is what you meant by "tricks" - but it sounded like a good way to get into, or practice, playing "out" on a solo and make it convincing - until you get to the point where you can make anything sound convincing!!

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by Paul Warburton

Don't you belong on the other side?

The problem is that there is no "Music Theory" forum anywhere else - this is the only one on the whole of TalkBass - so if anybody wants to ask about Music Theory, this is the only place, no matter what instrument you play!!

[Paul Warburton]

Bruce, Jace's statement about "just learning to play my favorite licks in the wrong key" tells me, among other things, a little about this guy. This statement has nothing to do with musical theory, but you go ahead and amuse yourself.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by Paul Warburton

Bruce, Jace's statement about "just learning to play my favorite licks in the wrong key" tells me, among other things, a little about this guy. This statement has nothing to do with musical theory, but you go ahead and amuse yourself.

Fair enough - I thought that was a jokey riposte - but what "other side" do you think he belongs in, then?

[Chris Fitzgerald]

One of my favorite Hal Galper sayings (growlings?) of all time is the following from a master class I was part of back in '89:

"Your outside **** is only as good as your inside ****"

The longer I live with that statement, the deeper it gets.

[Jace The Bass]

Originally Posted by Patrick Cowan

That may be one of the funniest statements I've read here yet...

The important question for you may be, "Why am I bored with my playing?" I suspect it may have more to do with running your "favorite licks" and scales than with not being able to play "out". Do you get bored listening to Miles or Bill Evans or, for that matter, Monk, when they play the changes? As Sam says, maybe you just need to study the music a bit deeper.

Speaking of getting Monk's name wrong, I remember when Monk died, the newscaster said, "Jazz great, Thee-o-lonius Monk has died..."

Good Point Patrick I think by transcribing the greats as you have mentioned I guess I would pick up some outside licks and forgive me of my spelling
Paul Im not sure what you mean by the other side perhaps it means in the BG section if it is then I only put this question in this section because playing outside the changes relates to jazz and what a better way to ask for advice from you guys DB players ( excuse me musicians ) who have a good grasp on Jazz although there are players who play jazz on BG anyway I appreciate all the advice Thanks Guys

[thebassmuchacho]

on ii v's its cool to do diminished stuff. Like in your example, c to f to Bb, you could play around with C half whole dim or whole half dim, and then let your playing resolve when it gets to I, or Bb.

[Paul Warburton]

This thread is getting more out as time goes by.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by MACK THE KNIFE

Paul Im not sure what you mean by the other side perhaps it means in the BG section if it is then I only put this question in this section because playing outside the changes relates to jazz and what a better way to ask for advice from you guys DB players ( excuse me musicians ) who have a good grasp on Jazz although there are players who play jazz on BG anyway I appreciate all the advice Thanks Guys

That's perfectly fine, and is what this forum is here for. I think people were just a bit confused by your question at first. You also need to remember that carrying around a huge double bass all the time makes guys get kinda cranky as the years go by...

[Paul Warburton]

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

That's perfectly fine, and is what this forum is here for. I think people were just a bit confused by your question at first. You also need to remember that carrying around a huge double bass all the time makes guys get kinda cranky as the years go by...

What the hell do you mean by that!?

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by POUR WARM BUTTER

What the hell do you mean by that!?

Nothing, SIR!










(MACK THE TRUCK - see? See? Paul's been lugging his big @$$ bass around longer than any of us. See what happens?)

[jazzbo]

All things considered, I'm still a little lost. I'm starting to wonder if the reason I suck so bad is that I don't have any favorite licks.

[Mike Crumpton]

Okay Jace - easy one for you - take one of your favourite m7 licks that lasts a bar, for example, and a tune with a static chord sequence - lets say it has 4 bars of dm7. So you play a Dm7 lick, the same lick transposed up a M3 to F#7, then up again another M3 to A#7(Bb7) and then up again to Dm7 again. You can do the same trick with any interval that divides the octave equally as long as you've got enough bars to fit it in. The drive of the movement by identical intervals moves it out of key and back logically. If you start to run out of fingerboard going up in M3s go down to the same note which will be a m6th down. (or if you ar going up m3s its down M6s and vice versa) All this is nothing new or that all the good guys here don't know already. I'm not claiming its art but its a start and its in the cliche bag of many a sax player (ok - we play bass but LaFarro started with sax and sax is where you hear pepole doing it most - but even my bass teach encouraged me to do it).

m=minor M=major in the above BTW

Hope this makes sense.

[Jace The Bass]

Originally Posted by Mike Crumpton

Okay Jace - easy one for you - take one of your favourite m7 licks that lasts a bar, for example, and a tune with a static chord sequence - lets say it has 4 bars of dm7. So you play a Dm7 lick, the same lick transposed up a M3 to F#7, then up again another M3 to A#7(Bb7) and then up again to Dm7 again. You can do the same trick with any interval that divides the octave equally as long as you've got enough bars to fit it in. The drive of the movement by identical intervals moves it out of key and back logically. If you start to run out of fingerboard going up in M3s go down to the same note which will be a m6th down. (or if you ar going up m3s its down M6s and vice versa) All this is nothing new or that all the good guys here don't know already. I'm not claiming its art but its a start and its in the cliche bag of many a sax player (ok - we play bass but LaFarro started with sax and sax is where you hear pepole doing it most - but even my bass teach encouraged me to do it).

m=minor M=major in the above BTW

Hope this makes sense.

Hmmm Nice Kool
I Like it Thanks for sharing Mike Wow you just opened a door in my vocabulary I appreciate this
Hey Paul perhaps you should join us on the other side be a lot easier carrying a BG than a DB ( Just Kidding )