Pedal point, wer to use em

[Jazzkuma]

Hey so iv been playing with some ppl here and I like to use a pedal point during the solo sections and apparently the people I play with really dig this. My question is, I have been told before that the pedal point is usually most effective in the ii of the ii-V-I, however lately someone told me that using the V on the pedal is "more effective". I thought it fits pretty well with the ii, theoretically what is the "correct" way to play the pedal, on the ii, V... or maybe even the root lol.

[Paul Warburton]

IMO, you buddy is right. At least in terms of jazz. You need to be more clear about in what musical genre and under what circumstances you are alluding to.
In jazz, we use the 5 (below the tonic) to create musical tension. It builds tension for the soloist, and adds a "spring board" for him/her when released.
This has absolutely nothing to do with theory or being "correct". It just....be.

[Marc Piane]

Also remember that whatever note you put on the bottom defines the position of the chord.

[Pat Harris]

In jazz, the V is traditionally used as a pedal. That said, there are tunes that have their own pedal points built into the form of the song. If you're going to put your own dominant pedal, it would likely be best to do at a distinct part of the form like the bridge or the last A section. Since it's used to create tension, it usually wants to resolve to the tonic chord (which usually starts the last A). The best place to learn this stuff is from recordings.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

In order to use the pedal points in a meaningful way, it's a good idea to make sure you understand the way the chords above it relate to each other. I find that if I want to create a pedal that's "inside the harmony", it can work as long as all of the chords above it are all related by key.

For example, in "All The Things You Are", each A section contains 8 chords, but only two key centers: Ab, and C. The first of these lasts 5 bars, and the second last 3 bars. The most common pedals to use would be Eb (V) for the first key center, and G (V) for the second one.

Beyond that, it's all about what you hear as an "effective" pedal tone.

[Marc Piane]

+1 DURRL. It is also key that the folks you are playing with can do something with it. I play in one group that whenever we do Softly we mess with the changes quite a bit. The tune is basically Cm - EbM - Cm which is in essence the same thing since Cm and EbM are relative. We treat it like a modal tune. For pedals then I might pedal G for the A section and F for the B section or Bb for the A's and G for the B's or whatever. It is just important that whoever you are playing with have the ears to handle it.

for reference

[Paul Warburton]

Originally Posted by fingers

+1 DURRL. It is also key that the fols you are playing with can do something with it. I play in one group that whenever we do Softly we mess with the changes quite a bit. The tune is basically Cm - EbM - Cm which is in essence the same thing since Cm and EbM are relative. We treat it like a modal tune. For pedals then I might pedal G for the A section and F for the B section or Bb for the A's and G for the B's or whatever. It is just important that whoever you are playing with have the ears to handle it.

for reference

I'm confused, Marc. You use an F for the B section? AABA form. Cm...8 bars. Cm....8 bars. Bridge, EbM...8 bars and last 8, Cm...8 bars.

[Marc Piane]

Sure. I think of Fs relation to the G pedal not the Eb.

My point is you can pedal on anything as long as the cats you are playing with have the ears to handle it. The point is to create tension that is going to make a resolution back to the tonic that much stronger and almost cathartic. I guess I think of it as a 'reharmed pedal'.

Maybe it drives people nuts when I do it.

[Marc Piane]

I'd love to hear DURRL's take on this since he played with JMPilc and (among many other things) he does stuff like this.

[Paul Warburton]

Originally Posted by fingers

Sure. I think of Fs relation to the G pedal not the Eb.

My point is you can pedal on anything as long as the cats you are playing with have the ears to handle it. The point is to create tension that is going to make a resolution back to the tonic that much stronger and almost cathartic. I guess I think of it as a 'reharmed pedal'.

Maybe it drives people nuts when I do it.

Ok. I was trying to hear how to deal with the F pedal on a bridge that's in EbM from the listeners standpoint..

[JavierBass]

Actually the F under the Cmin gives it a cool sus sound, it can almost imply an fsus11 sound, Cmin7/F, like in One Finger Snap where you have Gmin7/C, Bbmin7/Eb, Ebmin7/Ab.
For minor chords playing a fourth up/fifth down can also be a very effective pedal, especially in modal tunes like Impressions, i.e. Dmin7/G, Ebmin7/Ab. It creates a very open sound and can be very effective if you hear that the soloist starts to play in mixolydian modes over the minor chords. But pedals should always be used at the player's discretion, as with most devices.

[Paul Warburton]

Marc, I see/hear what you saying now. When I read your post, I didn't take the time to check it out on my bass...I did and I see.
It reminds me of something Don Thomson shared with me once on a private tape he did with Jim Hall. They were doing "How deep is the ocean" and during some 8's with Terry Clarke, outta nowhere Jim actually changed the tonal center by doing that very thing. If Don and his big ears hadn't caught it, it would have been pretty bizarre.
Not for the faint of heart.

[Marc Piane]

Right on. Like I was saying it relies on the size of ears of the cats on stage. Playing a F pedal with a piano player still wanging away on the changes of that B section is gonna sound funky (in a bad way). Compound that with a sax that is still playing his favorite Bird licks and it gonna sound like ****.

To me it is all about drawing a line. We give the listener reference points (beat 1, top of form, tonic, bridge, etc). How you connect (or not) those dots is what makes it interesting.

Also realize that you can't really do stuff like this on 26-2 (though Jean Michel Pilc does) but many standards can be distilled into pretty 'modal' forms.

[Paul Warburton]

Thanks, man. I'm playing with some guy named Art Lande tomorrow. I'll do my best. I'll warn him to "realize" that same stuff.

[Marc Piane]

You so crazy Unka.

You know way more than me here. I know that. When I write stuff I'm doing for the general consumption of an internet forum.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by fingers

My point is you can pedal on anything as long as the cats you are playing with have the ears to handle it. The point is to create tension that is going to make a resolution back to the tonic that much stronger and almost cathartic. I guess I think of it as a 'reharmed pedal'.

Maybe it drives people nuts when I do it.

I think you nailed it with the above quote. Sometimes it's fun to string multiple pedals through multiple key changes, striving for a linear/chromatic line that sounds like a really slow bass line in relation to the tune. Another nice thing to add in is a rhythmic element that creates tension as well. One of my favorite ways to do this is to cross phrase the rhythms against the time (if the tune is in 4, phrase in 3, 5, 6, or 7). Or to play the standard "pedal on 2 & 4" thing, but turn the pedal into a walking line built on the dominant or something much more "big picture" than the specific change.

Originally Posted by fingers

I'd love to hear DURRL's take on this since he played with JMPilc and (among many other things) he does stuff like this.

With JMP, what seems to be going on is this: the guy's a bona fide musical genius, and to him, the entire form of the tune is a pedal point from which he can depart and return at will. The game he plays on most of the stuff I've heard/experienced is to keep the tune running at all times in the background, then superimpose whatever you want on top of it. Somewhere in each tune, there will be be one or two or three little identifying hits or figures which are specific to a certain spot in the form. So tension is created by playing something completely apart from the tune/form itself (i.e. during one performance of "Caravan" in Indy, he started playing "Giant Steps" in an odd meter and held it until the hits at the end of the A section came up; I couldn't figure out how to go with it, so I just disguised the time and floated a pedal while holding onto the form internally), then coming together for the hit or identifying phrase exactly when it would have happened in the original tune. It's a real gas to hear he and Ari do that all night long.

[Marc Piane]

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

the guy's a bona fide musical genius

+1 with lots of zeros. Listening to him has completely changed how I approach playing standards. I can't imagine what it'd be like to PLAY with him.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by fingers

+1 with lots of zeros. Listening to him has completely changed how I approach playing standards. I can't imagine what it'd be like to PLAY with him.

It's kind of like getting spanked hard by a hot musical dominatrix, only without the leather.

[Marc Piane]

...so he's more of a latex guy?

All I know is I have been listening to him hard or 5+ years and I hear new stuff all the time. Turned everything I know on its ear. I never thought a recording of Honeysuckle Rose or C Jam Blues could have that kind of effect (or affect) on me.

[Marc Piane]

BTW if you haven't already checked out Martial Solal do. He is a predecessor of Pilc's and you can really hear partially where Pilc is coming from. All those Parisian cats doing that freaky Euroshit. So hip.