Rhythm Changes Question

[BoulderBrow]

Hey guys

I've recently been trying to walk over these changes comfortabley and noticed that I havnt heard any rhythm derived lines in any key other than Bb. I know there must be some out there - can anyone point me in the right direction? Do people practice this in all 12 keys like you would for the blues?

[rhythmchanges]

I think Bird's 'Scrapple From the Apple' is in 'F', if memory serves. Yeah, lots of rhythm changes tunes are in Bb, but it's a great progression to know all the way around the neck.

[Dave Speranza]

Practicing rhythm changes in 12 keys is a great idea, but not necessarily for the reason you might think.

The idea behind it is not so that you are ready to kick ass when someone finally calls rhythm changes in E - no one is gonna call that. The reason why you want to practice it in 12 keys is so that you learn your I-vi-ii-V and all the various subs for that progression in all keys, because you will go to E major on the bridge of some tune that gets called a lot.

That said, sometimes you will play rhythm changes in keys besides Bb, and you should be prepared for that. Or often time someone will call a tune and say, "The A's are rhythm changes" or "Its a rhythm bridge" and these won't always be in Bb, so you should know these progressions in all your keys.

[oliebrice]

Originally Posted by BoulderBrow

Do people practice this in all 12 keys like you would for the blues?

yes, and every other standard I learn.

[oliebrice]

Originally Posted by Dave Speranza

The idea behind it ... is so that you learn your I-vi-ii-V and all the various subs for that progression in all keys

and so that you'll learn to hear the changes relative to themselves, rather than just knowing "I've played a Fm7, now I'll move my fingers over here to the Bb7"

[WillBuckingham]

Originally Posted by Dave Speranza

The idea behind it is not so that you are ready to kick ass when someone finally calls rhythm changes in E - no one is gonna call that.

You never know on a singer's gig, though. I work with a singer who does "Perdido" in "G". Not exactly rhythm changes, but I was thankful I practice my rhythm changes in 12 keys the first time she called it.

OP: I like to do rhythm changes (and blues for that matter) in 12 keys in one sitting. I set an easy comfortable metronome tempo, start in C, and play 12 choruses, modulating up a 4th every chorus. It's a good workout, and for me it helps me start playing from sounds without thinking too hard about the changes.

There are a few stock rhythm changes tunes in C "(Errand Girl for Rhythm)", F ("Chasing the Bird"), and "Cottontail" is usually in Ab, which can throw you for a loop if your not expecting it (people like to play that one FAST).

[msw]

Tunes Similar to Rhythm

Straighten Up and Fly Right Ab
Don't Be That Way Db
Airmail Special Ab or C
Between The Devil And The Deep Blue Sea (lots of different keys)
Stuffy (Coleman Hawkins) Db
Lavern Walk G

And many more................

[Michael Eisenman]

Originally Posted by oliebrice

yes, and every other standard I learn.

I've heard this a lot, but I wonder which method you use to do this. Do you sit down and transpose the music into each of the 12 keys manually, do you type the changes into a program like Finale and print the song in every key (heck of a big fake book), or what?

Seems like a very laborious process.

Michael

[DrBassie]

When I learn a tune, I just learn it to degrees of the scale. For example, in I Got Rhythm. I know it's a 1-6-2-5 then the bridge goes the 3 and then it's a cycle of 4ths.

You can use that for all keys. It's a lot faster than transposing each individual chord change.

[WillBuckingham]

Originally Posted by low.eadg

I've heard this a lot, but I wonder which method you use to do this. Do you sit down and transpose the music into each of the 12 keys manually, do you type the changes into a program like Finale and print the song in every key (heck of a big fake book), or what?

Seems like a very laborious process.

Michael

I think most people just do it in their head. You have to be prepared to transpose a tune in your head on the spot if you're working professionally. Singers will almost always call tunes in their specific keys, and a lot of horn players will call tunes in keys other than the stock key. Additionally, a lot of tunes have two stock keys depending on who's playing them or what city your in.

[BoulderBrow]

Looks like I got my work cut out!

12 keys sounds pretty hard but I'll definately give it ago. I'm fortunate to have a small pro tools set up at home, so I'll sequence a cheesy midi backing track then transpose it up in 4ths.

I'll post the backing track up later if anyone wants a listen

[bassist1962]

Bachman Turner Overdrive had a song called 'Welcome Home'. The ending of this piece is Rhythm changes in D, and Fred Turner walks his ...off in it. Give it a listen if you can find a copy.

[Aaron Cohn]

Originally Posted by rhythmchanges

I think Bird's 'Scrapple From the Apple' is in 'F', if memory serves. Yeah, lots of rhythm changes tunes are in Bb, but it's a great progression to know all the way around the neck.

Scrapple isn't on rhythm changes, really. The A sections are based on Honeysuckle Rose, with a rhythm changes bridge.

[Dave Speranza]

Originally Posted by BoulderBrow View Post
Do people practice this in all 12 keys like you would for the blues?

I'd like to respond to this. I could be wrong here, and I know this goes against the mantra that has been ingrained into us of "practice everything in all 12 keys" but I think this is unnecessary at best and a waste of time at worst.

Being able to play the things you know (changes, melodies, licks, etc) in 12 keys is not a result of practicing those things endlessly in 12 keys. It's a result of knowing those things very well in 1 key and having well developed transposition skills or ear training.

I think it's more important to work on HOW to transpose. Once you develop those skills, if you know a tune in one key, you know it in 12 without ever practicing it in 11 extra keys.

I've spent some time playing certain things in 12 keys, and it has been very beneficial in my ability to transpose other tunes on the gig without having played them in different keys before. Blues, Cherokee, Rhythm Changes, and Blues for Alice were all awesome things to work on in 12 keys. Playing those developed my ability to play other tunes in any key without ever having practiced that.

Another very useful exercise is to learn tunes not just "from the record," but from three or four different records, especially some vocal ones. Chances are you will end up playing through the song in a few different keys. I find that when I learn a tune like this, I may never even learn which key is the "standard" key, but I am prepared for whatever key it gets called in. I find that playing through 4 songs in 3 different keys each will take you a lot farther than practicing 1 song in 12 keys.

Anyways I could write a lot about this but i hope that gets the general point across. As always, YMMV, this is just my 2 cents.

[oliebrice]

"having well developed transposition skills or ear training"

I find that transposing tunes into all keys is a good way of developing those exact skills.

in answer to the question above, I transpose them in my head. The first couple of keys I might have to think "Ab up a 4th is Db", but after a couple of keys I can generally do it by ear.

[Clay_Bass]

Originally Posted by Aaron Cohn

Scrapple isn't on rhythm changes, really. The A sections are based on Honeysuckle Rose, with a rhythm changes bridge.

Thank you! I don't know why but it seems like 90 percent of people seem to think its a rhythm changes tune. I've gotten some wierd looks brining up the fact that it isn't but I actually worked through that song with todd coolman in a lesson last summer and it was one of my college audition songs.

[crookedfingers]

I agree that ear-training and intervolic theory trump shedding lines in all keys but working on melodies in 12 keys is very important for chops. Its important to be able to play what you hear in your head and if you don't have everything down in every key than to ii V in Gb might stump you.

[Andy Allen]

Originally Posted by BoulderBrow

Hey guys

I've recently been trying to walk over these changes comfortabley and noticed that I havnt heard any rhythm derived lines in any key other than Bb. I know there must be some out there - can anyone point me in the right direction? Do people practice this in all 12 keys like you would for the blues?

I was struggling to play Parisian Thoroughfare until the piano player told me it was pretty much rhythm changes in F. The bridge is rhythm changes verse too, but in A followed by C (4 bars each).

It's a neat song to work out your rhythm changes chops to.

Andy

[msw]

Parisian Thoroughfare is based on the standard Between The Devil And The Deep Blue Sea.

[Andy Allen]

Originally Posted by msw

Parisian Thoroughfare is based on the standard Between The Devil And The Deep Blue Sea.

Neat, thanks, I didn't know that. I love contrafacts - I've never played 'Between The Devil And The Deep Blue Sea,' but I now know one more song than I did before I read your post .

Andy