Rhythmic Function of Bass: Working with or without Drummer

[bonaventura]

From what I've heard and read and learned in jazz school in 7 years of playing bass, the bass sets the rhythm for jazz. Oscar Pettiford said that few instruments are as essential as bass (you don't really NEED piano, drums, etc. but the bass is essential to the music). Rufus Reid also discusses how the puls comes from the bass. My ensemble teacher said the same. A bassist who keeps the rhythm is sufficient.

I've been playing with a band for 2 years now (piano, sax, drums) that played together for 20 years -- without bass. They wanted a double bass and brought me on but they are used to following the drums for rhythm. I've weened the pianist away from a heavy left hand, but it seems ingrained in them that the drummer drives the rhythm. This can be a problem if the drummer isn't listening to the bass. I think Ed Fuqua has an interesting footer, attributing to Chet Baker the statement that it's hard for a drummer to improve over no drummer, which, coming form a bassist is along the same lines.

Bass and drums are rhythmically interrelated in terms of function but this is isn't always so easy or clear to figure out who is setting the rhythm. I would think an ensemble would benefit from knowing just who all the musicians should be focusing on for the rhythm. I think the sound would be tighter and more expressive if the drums were more for accentuating the rhythm, adding and supplementing the bass, rather than the other way round.

So I would like to ask you ole pro's this: Do you have any thoughts on this or have you had any experiences in this bass/drums relationship? Did you have any difficulties here and how did you resolve them? How did you communicate on this topic with the others? How does one describe it? Are there any music theory materials that clearly state how the rhythmic function of the bass relates to the drums in jazz? thanks in advance for any comments.

[bassist1962]

I actually come from a rock background, but my teacher was a jazz player. He told me that we are the link between the drums, and the melody, and we are the time keepers. I have played in situations where the drummer wants me to stick with his bass drum. Try this for a while and see what develops. I myself have focused on the drums as a whole, and try to play rhythmicly with what is happening - hit a drum, or cymbal - I hit a note. That being said, I may not have helped the situation, but encouraged you to follow the rest of the bands lead. But it is a starting point. Start off like this for a while, then bring in your own style into the fold. This may take some time, but if they are open minded, it shouldn't be a problem.

[Gintaras]

Originally I spent 15 years as a percussionist. I was always used to having the drummer and bass player lay down the rhythm as a team. Regularly in a jam situation, I run into the drummer thinking he is the lead guitarist and finding that I can quickly just lay down a groove and the band paying attention.

I also have a weekly get together with 2 and sometimes 3 acoustic guitarists. There it is quite easy to carry the rhythm.

I typically find musicians not understanding basic roles of the instruments!!!! Once I asked a guitarist what was that chord he was playing and he said an 'A'. I asked 'A what' His response was 'why does it matter that you know the complete chord'. He envisioned all bassists only knowing to know the root.

[fingers]

My 2 cents...

All of the stereotypical roles of different instruments are crap. In order to create groove everyone has to have great time. Everyone has to contribute to the overall feel. Everyone has to contribute to harmonic and rhythmic interplay. Everyone has to feed ideas back and forth. How the horn plays the melody or solo and how the piano comps both contribute.

This is not to say that there are different ways that each instrument fits into this puzzle. I would just encourage the idea of discarding this idea and putting responsibility on everyone for everything.

I started a thread called "building a groove' which I will delete because this thread covers it.

My feeling is that some grooves are built from the bottom up. Someone mentioned pairing with the bass drum and at the core this is true. The key is developing a rapport with a drummer that neither instrument is the driving force and you are combining and morphing as the situation changes. This doesn't mean that every note you play has to have a 1:1 correspondence with a note on the drums. This does mean that there is a relationship between the foundation of your rhythm and the bass drum.

Like I said, everyone contributes to the groove.

More ideas in a bit.

[deaf pea]

Originally Posted by bassist1962

...we are the link between the drums, and the melody, and we are the time keepers. I have played in situations where the drummer wants me to stick with his bass drum.

Originally Posted by fingers

My feeling is that some grooves are built from the bottom up. Someone mentioned pairing with the bass drum and at the core this is true. The key is developing a rapport with a drummer that neither instrument is the driving force and you are combining and morphing as the situation changes...there is a relationship between the foundation of your rhythm and the bass drum. Like I said, everyone contributes to the groove.

From MY experience, the drummer's pulse comes from his ride cymbal (or hi-hat, if he/she is playing "time" there, instead of playing it on the ride). The bass drum, snare and toms are usually used for accents, NOT time . . .

And fingers, you are correct in saying that "everyone contributes to the groove"

[kherber]

Well, I think I agree with everything everyone's said so far in this thread.

For my money, it's all about the drummer and bass player "hooking up". If they can get synced with each other, the rest of the rhythm players--and lead players--can lay back and enjoy the ride.

A good drummer/bassist team (I've had a few over the last 34 years) become one big instrument. The drums have all the attack, the bass has all the tone and sustain. If they're hitting on the mark, it sounds like one instrument--some kind of huge talking drum (that cannot be denied).

Everyone should play good time/rhythm, but they should be listening and blending--and the bass and drums are the core. Guitar players who try to drive the band playing chords need to back off and learn to ride the drums/bass, learn to use their intstruments for 'color' and voicing rather than percussion. Piano players who insist on doubling the bass should have their left hands sewn into the back pocket of their pants for the duration of the gig.

One of the biggest problems with many musicians is they simply do not listen to the music. They play "their part," almost lost in a world of their own, rather than trying to be part of a group.

Doc

[fingers]

Originally Posted by kherber

One of the biggest problems with many musicians is they simply do not listen to the music. They play "their part," almost lost in a world of their own, rather than trying to be part of a group.

This is right on. There is a skill to hearing yourself as a part of the whole rather than just hearing yourself. I do think part of it is forgetting any kind of specific roles, scales, rhythms, technique issues, etc., and I mean knowing this stuff so cold that you can at least try forget it. The more you can get out of your own head the easier it is to hear the whole picture. I think this is a life long journey that, at 32, I feel like I have just found the starting line.

One tool that I have found very valuable in this is the recorder. I used to record every gig. I still record some. The next day I put the recording on and spend several hours listening and critiquing. This really helped me to start to hear myself in the big picture.

[oliebrice]

Originally Posted by bonaventura

(you don't really NEED piano, drums, etc. but the bass is essential to the music).

what about the Paul Motian trio? Jim Hall & Bill Evans? any number of great solo pianists?

IMO, all musicians are responsible for dealing with time, harmony, melody and everything else, in the way that the music they are making requires.

[Jason Hollar]

It is tough when you're trying to swing -- but the pianist is used to more "two fisted" chord arrangements and rhythms. I feel your pain!

I'm sure we've all done gigs with those "solo" lounge piano players who have dreadful time (because they can!) and play huge chords in the lower register all the time!

There are also plenty of drummers that can't help playing rock or shuffle beats when the feel is much lighter swing.

Guitarists also can be a big drag -- when they are too loud or play chunky blues chords instead of hipper two or three-notew voicings (when appropriate). Even guys who are used to playing their own chord/melody arrangements can be hard to hook up with.

The point is, it's OK to discuss these things with your bandmates -- as long as everyone is committed to the music and to growing as musicians.

If not, find some other people who already swing and play tastefully. I've found you don't have to tell the best musicians ANYTHING...the music does the talking! Good luck!

[bonaventura]

[quote=oliebrice;4094918]what about the Paul Motian trio? Jim Hall & Bill Evans? any number of great solo pianists?

hey, all of you who reacted to my situation and wrote down your thoughts... thanks. i've learned from this thread. one thing i learned is: not even us bassists all agree on the rhythmic function of the bass... i agree that bassless ensembles can and do exist (and make great music), but they have to somehow keep time. add a bassist and there is suddenly a rhythmic sound that was not there before and which can be relied on to give the puls.

and i agree with what's been said about being a team with the drummer. it's like "one big rhythm machine", or it's like shooting a ping-pong ball back and forth with the drummer, or it's a shared core function. but i still note that when I, the bassist, CHANGE the rhythm, everyone has to change with me. if I am off, the whole sound is SABOTAGED. It's the role of the jazz bassist to keep time while walking, bass solos are of course excepted.

for me it's not a satisfying explanation to point out that all the musicians are in fact creating the rhythm. while ideally it's true and in theory EVERYONE is "responsible" for keeping rhythm, in practice not so. yes, piano and guitar CAN be rhythmic -- when not soloing. in my experience, pianists are often used to playing without even bothering about rhythm. some are even arhythmic because they're not always used to playing or needing to play with others. bass is essentially an accompanying instrument. the other melody-carrying instruments (sax, trumpet, guitar) are not used to clearly defining or keeping to the rhythm. it's just not their job description... but it's bassic to ours

rhythm isn't all in the head either.... it's about FEELING. "building a groove" from the bottom up is good concept and please elaborate on that idea. usually it's easy to start out doing a 2-beat rhythm and then going over to a walking line at some later point. getting the feeling rolling and then adding accents. but the rhythm, the groove, is radiating from the bass ... and definitely not the flute... at least not usually. my 2 cents.

[fingers]

If a player has bad time, any player, they are not doing their job. There is a notion out there that all that **** falls on the bass player. No. As you play with better and better players you will find that no one expects you to keep them honest. That is not to say that it is not your job to play time if the situation calls for it. The bass does have to lay it down but not to cover other people's butts. The time-keeper role is one way (and the most common) to paint the total picture for the audience.

[bonaventura]

Originally Posted by fingers

My 2 cents...

My feeling is that some grooves are built from the bottom up.

Can you elaborate a bit on what you mean by "building a groove" and by "building from the bottom"? I'd like to hear more about that...

[fingers]

Sure. Here's the way I think about it. This is completely unscientific but somehow gets me hired to do my thing.

The human ear perceives different pitches of notes in different ways. The lowest notes (consistently) have two functions. 1 They help define the harmony. 2 They help define the pulse. The bass is unique in that it fills both these roles.

We perceive chords from lowest to highest. The note in the bass defines the position of the chord. When a piano player voices a chord weird or plays a non-harmonic tone up high it does not stick out nearly as much as a bass note of the same pitch. This becomes more true as you go down in pitch on any instrument. If that same piano player puts that note in question lower in the left hand it starts to take on different characteristics. This is part of the reason why a piano player with an active left hand can be maddening and also the reason why bass clunkers sound so bad. I attribute this to the force at which lower pitches move air molecules. More on that later.

The same is true for groove. Again the human ear hears the pulse coming from the lowest voices on stage. This is due to the lowest instruments physically moving the most air. In a setting where a drummer is present the lowest instruments are the bass and the bass drum. This creates what we refer to as the foundation or 'bottom' of the groove. In my mind groove or pulse is about moving air. With that the lower notes in your groove are going to move more air then the higher ones. A locked bass and bass drum are going to aid eachother in moving said air. This is also why confusion between these two can cause mud. Another reason why an over active left hand on piano can be maddening. When we are talking about moving volume of air teamwork is the key. Think of grooves where you can physically feel it in your chest. That's air. This relationship varies depending on the feel.

Here's one of my all time favorite quotes from one of my all time favorite musicians, Frank Zappa.

"A composer is a guy who goes around forcing his will on unsuspecting air molecules, often with the assistance of unsuspecting musicians."

Same applies here.

More as I rationalize it.

[bonaventura]

ok, I follow your thoughts and am in complete agreement. It's true both in terms of physics and sound perception. 1. and 2., but we are really talking mostly about 2.

in practice, i guess this means a "groove" or "pulse" is created best, at least initially (?), with deeper tones. have i got that right?

from a practical bass-playing perspective, what other conclusions or insights do you draw from this?

[fingers]

Just figuring out the best way to reply to this in the context of an internet forum. It is alot easier with a bass in my hands and folks standing in front of me. More soon.

[bonaventura]

Well, this thread ain't dead yet. Everyone seems to agree that the bassist -- when there IS is a drummer -- needs to be a team with the drummer (and of course with everyone else as well but especially with the drummer).

Here's what some said:

Originally Posted by bassist1962

...my teacher was a jazz player. He told me that we are the link between the drums, and the melody, and we are the time keepers. I have played in situations where the drummer wants me to stick with his bass drum.

Originally Posted by fingers

Everyone has to contribute to the overall feel. Everyone has to contribute to harmonic and rhythmic interplay.

Originally Posted by kherber

For my money, it's all about the drummer and bass player "hooking up". If they can get synced with each other, the rest of the rhythm players--and lead players--can lay back and enjoy the ride.

A good drummer/bassist team (I've had a few over the last 34 years) become one big instrument. The drums have all the attack, the bass has all the tone and sustain. If they're hitting on the mark, it sounds like one instrument--some kind of huge talking drum (that cannot be denied).

Everyone should play good time/rhythm, but they should be listening and blending--and the bass and drums are the core.

But what is the bassist doing WHEN THERE IS NO DRUMMER? This is a classic jazz team -- e.g., Nat King Cole, Ray Brown before Thigpen -- and it was my thought that here it would be clear that the bass is the rhythmic instrument.

Have any of you ole pro's played drummerless? What was it like, I mean, did you lay down the beat? Did you have to become a human metronome for the rest of the band? Was this a problem at all, say, when you wanted to solo? I would guess the skill of keeping time will improve for a bassist who plays without a drummer... Any experiences here?

[fingers]

It all depends on the person you are playing with. I've got a piano friend that likes on the more interactive thing. Last night I did a gig with a piano player that did better when I was just laying it down. You just have to be able to read to situation. You definitely have to be more conscious of the forward propulsion of the groove though.

[Atomik Rooster]

Originally Posted by kherber

. . . One of the biggest problems with many musicians is they simply do not listen to the music. They play "their part," almost lost in a world of their own, rather than trying to be part of a group.

Doc

Spot on. It's hard to get some jammers into the idea of playing the song rather than using it as an opportunity to show off. Speaking to the basic duo of bassist and drummer, the rhythm section by virtue of its general role, is probably the most restricted. I can't tell you how many drummers have complained about some songs being so incredibly boring and how many times I've told them to take up lead guitar if that's the case. I'm sure there are bassists who feel the same. That aside, though, bassists and drummers can keep things interesting by embracing the obligation to work as a team. Neither should ignore the other, try to compete for tempo, or automatically use empty musical space to embellish the song inappropriately. Some of the best moments for me are when the drummer and I work out a collective technique that gives other band members occasion to look around when we do something that is absolutely cool and elevates the song to new heights. Nothing better than looking back at them with a look that says, "Yeah, WE did that."

[bassist1962]

I'm currently in a situation where I have no drummer at the moment. Just bass, piano and guitar, I (amazingly) have the freedom to play what I want, and kind of strike a balance between the bass part and drums as far as rhythm goes. I'll do stuff like play a low note for the bass/bass drum, and hit a third, fifth, or octave for snare. Play the line I would normally play, but accent different beats per drum patterns. I picked up these techniques from playing in a trio and just trying to fill out the sound.

[Ben Rolston]

Originally Posted by bonaventura

This can be a problem if the drummer isn't listening to the bass.

I would try to never be in a situation where this is true. If the bass and drums aren't listening to each other, nobody's going to want to listen to the band.