Scale for substituted chord

boonzie · #1 09-08-2007, 03:38 PM

I have a question about a chord in a song I'm studying.
The song is a jazz-tune in C, and it starts of with a Dm. If I'm correct that would mean a dorian scale. Next chord "should" be a G7 (Mixolydian?), but it is substituted to a Gm instead. Which scale shall I play for the Gm?
Is there an easy way of figuring out which scale to play when the chords doesn't follow the "normal" chords in II, V, I (like Dm, G7, C) for example?

I hope you understand what I mean...

damonsmith · #2 09-08-2007, 04:41 PM

When my students ask that sort of question, I ask them what they are going to do with that information if I give it to them. Playing scales will always sound like you are playing scales.

Listen to the chord and play a line that sounds good and makes sense to your ear.
So not that I am saying not to seek this information, I am just saying to find out what various ideas against that chord in that context SOUND like. Not what should work on paper.

You also need an understanding of the chord tones, the third is about consonance, the seven is about dissonance, the five is supportive.
Running a scale with no concern for these factors is not going to to get you anywhere. If the tune is in C, the altered tone with Gm for G7 chord will be the Bb for the B natural, your line could reflect that if you find it to be that interesting that you want to highlight that sound.

The composer's intent could also be a Gm against C major, a more poly-tonal or even bluesy sound of the Bb against B natural, so getting too wrapped up in "The correct scale for the Gm" might interfere with that particular intent.

A large part of improvisation and/or composition has to do with forming your own harmonic and melodic tastes and opinions.
The reason an audience wants to hear you has to do with an interest in hearing your personal sonic opinons. Not what some book or someone on the internet tells you sounds good.

DocBop · #3 09-08-2007, 07:18 PM

That isn't much info. Also you thinking of bassline or solo. What is the next chord and sometime you need to take a bigger look, any dominants close. A Dmi7 going to Gmi7 could be VI-II like in All the Things You Are. I would say leave that chord alone for now, look at the chords before and after it and analyze those. Sometime you need to work backward to see how a chord is functioning in the grand scheme of things. Look ahead for dominants they typically are V7 and that give you idea of a current key. The Gmi could be parallel key of C minor. Lots of possibilities.

Zachmozach · #4 09-08-2007, 07:43 PM

It's hard to say without knowing where the Gm goes to. I'm with Damon on this one though. Try something out though. Play the chord on the piano and then very slowly play a chromatic scale and see yourself what the notes tell you. Listen to each one carefully and slowly. You might find that some of them that don't technically fit sound pretty cool. You'll know what notes fit yourself then and you'll understand it more intuitively.

damonsmith · #5 09-08-2007, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zachmozach

It's hard to say without knowing where the Gm goes to. I'm with Damon on this one though. Try something out though. Play the chord on the piano and then very slowly play a chromatic scale and see yourself what the notes tell you. Listen to each one carefully and slowly. You might find that some of them that don't technically fit sound pretty cool. You'll know what notes fit yourself then and you'll understand it more intuitively.

That is great advice!

HaVIC5 · #6 09-08-2007, 08:22 PM

I think he might be referring to the Cole Porter tune "Easy to Love" which is in the key of C, but the second chord is a Gm7, preceeded by a Dm7. That doesn't really make much sense, of chord in the context of the key of C, which the piece definitely is in (after this little Dm7-Gm7 fiasco, it goes to Dm7-G7-Cmaj7, and on to more typical harmonic conventions). When you hear these first couple of measures, though, it definitely does not sound like its in a major key. The first three measures are Dm7-Gm7-Dm7, which to the typical listener doesn't sound at all like C but rather D, specifically a Im7-IVm7-Im7 cadence in the key of D. If you analyze it like this, you can then rearrange your chord scale chords accordingly, assigning a natural minor sound to the first Dm7 and a dorian sound to the Gm7. It wouldn't be wise, however to play an aeolian sound over the second Dm7 however because it wouldn't fit within the general scheme of a ii-V-I in C major, since the IIm7 takes a dorian chord scale.

This is one possible analysis of the chord. You could also analyze it as, like DocBop suggested, being a borrowed V chord from the natural minor - a rare occurance, but still possible, which would give it a Phyrigian chord scale (or aeolian if you're thinking borrowing from dorian minor). What makes this analysis unlikely, however, is the E natural in the melody. Although you could dismiss this as a passing tone, it strongly leads you to picking a dorian chord scale or something similar to include the b3 and the natural 13 (the E natural).

fingers · #7 09-08-2007, 09:10 PM

Your answer is probably in the melody.

Don't reduce a song to a set of changes after the melody.

boonzie · #8 09-09-2007, 01:18 AM

Thanks for your answers guys.

The answer is maybe not as simple as I thought.
The tune is Summertime from Aebersolds Vol 54 Maiden Voyage book. It runs Dm, (D7+9), Gm, E(with a ring with a slash through, can't write that sign on my keyboard) and then A7+9.

Unfortunately I only play the DB, and not the piano at all. I often miss playing a "chord-instrument", beacuse I think it would be nice to be able to hear the harmonics of a song. Thats why I am leaning to the scales, to try and figure out which tones I can play for various chords. I might not just play scales up and down, at the end, but I would like to know if I could use the Eb or the E walking through that Gm. The E fits in the C tune, but maybe the Eb fits more with the Gm.

Am I confusing things in my head, or is my thoughts the proper way to think?
I have tried to find a teacher around, but haven't succeeded yet. Still looking though...

bopeuph · #9 09-09-2007, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boonzie

The answer is maybe not as simple as I thought.
The tune is Summertime from Aebersolds Vol 54 Maiden Voyage book. It runs Dm, (D7+9), Gm, E(with a ring with a slash through, can't write that sign on my keyboard) and then A7+9.

aaHHAA! The tune is actually in d minor, not C. That will help you in constructing a bassline. The ø symbol means half diminished. It can also be notated as min7b5. The notes would be E G Bb D, minus the upper extensions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by boonzie

Unfortunately I only play the DB, and not the piano at all. I often miss playing a "chord-instrument", beacuse I think it would be nice to be able to hear the harmonics of a song. Thats why I am leaning to the scales, to try and figure out which tones I can play for various chords. I might not just play scales up and down, at the end, but I would like to know if I could use the Eb or the E walking through that Gm. The E fits in the C tune, but maybe the Eb fits more with the Gm.

Depends on the function of the chord. In this instance, Gm is the iv chord, and the mode best used would probably be dorian. It has a major 6th, which is in the key of Dm, so E natural would be a more consonant idea. The Eb can work, though, as a passing tone, say, E (or even F) on the third beat, down to Eb then D while the Gm chord is sitting for those few bars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by boonzie

Am I confusing things in my head, or is my thoughts the proper way to think?
I have tried to find a teacher around, but haven't succeeded yet. Still looking though...

I think you're on the right track, just need a few nudges here and there.

Nick

jallenbass · #10 09-09-2007, 10:11 AM

What I'm finding invaluable to me is to put on the JA recording and record myself scat singing. Once I transcribe what I sing I have a set of notes and rhythms that I hear. Doing this you can tell yourself what scales/intervals work for you.

damonsmith · #11 09-09-2007, 11:24 AM

I don't play piano either, my mom is a piano teacher too, so it is pretty lame that I never learned that from her! She also studied classical guitar and composition so I was smart enough learn a lot of theory and basic guitar from her.
I work out chords to tunes on my acoustic bass guitar. I like doing that way because then it is in my fingers in a more related way.

Still, as Jackie Brown said to Ordell Robbie, " You ain't askin' the right questions."
The question is what are you trying to do? Create Tension? Resoloution? Movement? Support? a melody?
Once you have that figured out you can look at which notes in and out of key can acomplish those things.

Zachmozach · #12 09-09-2007, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by damonsmith

That is great advice!

Can't claim at as all my own. It's actually an idea I got from Victor Wooten in his book the Music Lesson, which IMO is a great book about music and life. I've had my copy on loan since I've got it since everyone who reads it says how great it is and then someone else wants to read it.

fingers · #13 09-09-2007, 12:31 PM

While Damon makes a great point about what sort of color or effect/affect you want your line to have I think the OP is not quite there yet. Boonzie, I'm not trying to belittle your knowledge either and may I'm totally off but you original question was about whether yo use Natural Minor or Dorian.

My answer, to go with Damon's is either/neither/both.

boonzie · #14 09-09-2007, 01:35 PM

No hurt feelings

I'm not trying to fool anyone, by claiming I'm a great base player, because I'm not. At least not yet.
But I'm eager to learn, and figure things out so I understand how harmonies/scales works together. Maybe I shall play different tones/scales depending of the "feeling" I would like to share, but I'm not there yet.
I'm just trying to get a basic understanding of the tune I'm studying, and when I can't figure it out myself I ask you guys.

l'm wondering if it really is Dm, the tune is written in. I guess Dm will have a b in front, but there are eighter b:s or #:s, so I thought C or Am, Dm-Gm being the II-V with the Gm instead of G7 altered from the natural minor.

Many thanks for all your answers

damonsmith · #15 09-09-2007, 08:23 PM

I feel like he should start there. I just started using a live improvisation electronic music program for my laptop, lloopp. After getting the basics down, I decided that rather than learn every little thing about it, I would wait until I wanted a specific thing, and then figure out how to make it do that.
Same thing here.
Part of the trouble with matching up scales to chords to early is it is too much information to handle.
So I say start with chord tones, then add extra scale tones, then add the sharp/flat versions and any other chromatic tones.

fingers · #16 09-09-2007, 08:33 PM

If the first chord is Dm it should have 1 b in the key signature.

I am a severely discourage thinking of improv in terms of 1:1 scale/chord correspondence. I'm with you Damon.

Mark Perna · #17 09-09-2007, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fingers

If the first chord is Dm it should have 1 b in the key signature.

I am a severely discourage thinking of improv in terms of 1:1 scale/chord correspondence. I'm with you Damon.

I certainly don't think in terms of 1:1 scale/chord correspondence but I wonder if you don't have to go through that stage to get beyond it? I mean if you are at the stage of asking what scale works over a Gm, can you think of the bigger picture yet? Is it a disservice to tell a beginning student to look beyond that stage before they've mastered it or even started to work on it? I'm of the mind that you need to master that basic level of neuromuscular recognition before you can advance beyond it.

On the other hand, I may be wrong. I suppose if you have great ears and instincts you could get away with it. Chet Baker couldn't spell a C major chord if you put a gun to his head but he had a great ear and his lack of technical knowledge didn't stop him from playing wonderfully.

mark

fingers · #18 09-09-2007, 10:16 PM

On the most basic level.

For beginning students I prefer to teach about the key areas. Basically over Gm in that tune you would be playing (as dictated by the key signature) G A Bb C D E F G. This can be given a name. G dorian. The thing without giving it a name is you are not cluttering your brain with all kinds of stuff. In the case of this tune the answer is in the melody and the key signature.

damonsmith · #19 09-10-2007, 01:28 AM

I think knowing the scales that fit chords is great, but I still think it tends to come way too soon. It reminds me of a word I made up, "Guitarded" which is the affliction a guitarist who plays chords they can't spell has, because some lazy teacher wanted to "get them playing songs right away".

Let's limit it to vertical thinking (harmonic).
Next, there are two choices:
1. Play a chord tone and reinforce or highlight a part of the existing harmony.
2. Play a note not in the chord and more than likely alter the harmony.

For 1, sticking with triads and 7s, we have 3-4 choices, a different thing happens for each one. Find that out, then move on to 2.

For 2 we have 8-9 choices, 3-4 of those will be diatonic, so start with them. Each one will have a different effect.
Outside of a blues or modal piece you rarely have the luxury of the room for a whole scale anyway, so why not figure out what each of the 12 pitches does?

For each pitch beyond a root or five you want to use, you need to know the musical effect. For example, If you lay into a third in a point where the composer is trying to build harmonic tension, you are going to undermine that by softening the dissonance, vice versa for laying into the seven durring partial resolve from a more dissonant chord to dominant 7 or m7.
This information is especially important for basslines durring the head, but it also adds depth to collective improvisations.
Just because a note is "in key" doesn't mean it can't be as wrong as any of the other 12 tones.

fingers · #20 09-10-2007, 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calivox

I certainly don't think in terms of 1:1 scale/chord correspondence but I wonder if you don't have to go through that stage to get beyond it? I mean if you are at the stage of asking what scale works over a Gm, can you think of the bigger picture yet? Is it a disservice to tell a beginning student to look beyond that stage before they've mastered it or even started to work on it? I'm of the mind that you need to master that basic level of neuromuscular recognition before you can advance beyond it.

I agree... sorta. On more complex tunes there is sometimes no way around thinking more individually about each chord. In the case of this tune the answer is in the melody and the key signature. We are really just talking about a slightly modified Dm blues.