seven steps to heaven analysis

[octavius]

Hi friends from talkbass forum,

i,m trying to analize this tune (Seven steps to heaven), and my main concern is with the second measure:

Fmaj7 |Em7 A7 |Dm7 |G7 |Gm7 |C7 |Eb6 E6| Fmaj7 ||

normaly it may be Em7b5 A7, but it actually is Em7 A7, so which chorscale is the first option for that second measure?

the corresponding scale for the Em7 is dorian and for A7 mixolidian?
or that A7 should use the one from the tonality A7b13, and then use dorian for Em7 and mixolidian b13 for A7?

in third measure that Dm7 is vi in F or ii in C?

And how do you see and head the tonality?
Fmaj7 |Em7 A7 |Dm7 |G7 |Gm7 |C7 --etc.
----F-----|-----C-----------------------------------------------|---F-------etc.
----F-------------------F--------------------------------------------F-------etc. (with secondary dominants in measures 2 and 4)
thanks in advance

Octavio

[Jeff Guevin]

Originally Posted by octavius

normaly it may be Em7b5 A7, but it actually is Em7 A7, so which chorscale is the first option for that second measure?

Octavio, couldn't you just play D melodic minor over that ii-V7-i?

Also, for what it's worth, the Real Book has that first phrase as

Fmaj7 Bb7 | E-7b5 A7 | D-7 Ab7 | G7

EDIT: Oh, I see, you're talking about the solo changes.

-Jeff

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by octavius

And how do you see and head the tonality?
Fmaj7 |Em7 A7 |Dm7 |G7 |Gm7 |C7 --etc.
----F-----|-----C-----------------------------------------------|---F-------etc.
----F-------------------F--------------------------------------------F-------etc. (with secondary dominants in measures 2 and 4)
thanks in advance

Octavio

I hear the whole "A" section in F, as follows:

F (I) / EØ A7 (iiØ-V/vi) / D-7 (vi) / G7 (V/V) / G-7 (ii) / C7 (V) / Eb6 (bVII7, equivalent of a minor iv) E6 (passing chord) F (I) /


It contains several bebop cliches which are often misinterpreted as modulations: the iiØ-V/vi, the V/V that becomes ii, and the minor iv. The melody usually illuminates the implied key center. As far as what to play, I play in F major over the A. I'm likely to add a passing C# in measure 2, change the Bb to B natural in measure 4, and play in F (natural) minor in bars 7-8 (when the Eb lasts for both bars...some players do this on the blowing).

[octavius]

thanks a lot Chris and Jeff for your fast answers,
they have helped me to clarify and then play more secure over this changes

thanks again

Octavio

[HaVIC5]

If you're thinking purely in terms of chord scales (which I don't personally recommend), I'd construct a chord scale based upon whatever is diatonic to the key of F major. So if we have an Em7, we first spell the chord, E G B D, and then fill in between the notes of that chord all the notes which are diatonic to the key of F. So we would have F (between E and G), A (between G and B) and C (between B and D) so you'd get the pitches E F G A B C D, or a phrygian chord scale. You could use dorian, of course, or aeolian, but just know that because you're using notes in between the chord tones which aren't diatonic to the key of F major, it will sound a lot "further away" from the key center than if you played an E phrygian chord scale.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by HaVIC5

If you're thinking purely in terms of chord scales (which I don't personally recommend), I'd construct a chord scale based upon whatever is diatonic to the key of F major. So if we have an Em7, we first spell the chord, E G B D, and then fill in between the notes of that chord all the notes which are diatonic to the key of F. So we would have F (between E and G), A (between G and B) and C (between B and D) so you'd get the pitches E F G A B C D, or a phrygian chord scale. You could use dorian, of course, or aeolian, but just know that because you're using notes in between the chord tones which aren't diatonic to the key of F major, it will sound a lot "further away" from the key center than if you played an E phrygian chord scale.

The key of F has a Bb, which by your reasoning would make the Emi7 chord into an Emi7b5, and turn the Phrygian into Locrian. Or am I misunderstanding your intention?

[HaVIC5]

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

The key of F has a Bb, which by your reasoning would make the Emi7 chord into an Emi7b5, and turn the Phrygian into Locrian. Or am I misunderstanding your intention?

You're misunderstanding my intention a bit. Yes, the key of F has a Bb in it, but the chord of Em7 does not, its a non-diatonic chord. It's still related to the key of F (when we hear it in the context of a chord progression, it's obvious that it hasn't modulated), but there are non-diatonic notes within the chord structure itself. When you're thinking in terms of chord scales, you're not going to be changing the pitches of the chord itself - a Bb, while diatonic, won't work very well stressed against the B natural of the Em7 chord. The Em7 chord gives you 4 pitches to work with, and by filling in diatonic notes in between these four pitches, you get a scale. That way you're still playing notes that have a strong relationship to the key of the moment (remember, your ear hasn't really heard a modulation yet), but are still playing over a non-diatonic chord.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I've always considered the Em chord to be an Em7b5, which is the diatonic viiØ in the key of F, and also the iiØ in the iiØ-V7alt of vi.

[HaVIC5]

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

I've always considered the Em chord to be an Em7b5, which is the diatonic viiØ in the key of F, and also the iiØ in the iiØ-V7alt of vi.

....but its not a m7b5, anymore than a major 7 chord is a dominant 7 chord. I mean, its fine if you reinterpret the lead sheet when playing in a combo so long as everybody knows what's going on, but when the piano player plays that natural 5, the B natural in the voicing, you know that its a non-diatonic chord and should be treated accordingly.

[basswave]

Interesting thread...

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by HaVIC5

....but its not a m7b5, anymore than a major 7 chord is a dominant 7 chord. I mean, its fine if you reinterpret the lead sheet when playing in a combo so long as everybody knows what's going on, but when the piano player plays that natural 5, the B natural in the voicing, you know that its a non-diatonic chord and should be treated accordingly.

As far as I'm concerned, once the blowing begins, it's a minor ii-V to Dmi. Just because the lead sheet might not give a specific alteration for the A7 chord doesn't mean that it's unaltered. I honestly don't know anyone who plays a major ii-V in that spot and resolves to a minor chord on the blowing. As a piano player, I wouldn't play a B natural on that voicing beyond the head because the lead sheet didn't have it written in, especially when the soloist was playing as if over a minor ii-V. YMMV.

[jweiss]

FWIW The New Real Book Vol 2 has the same changes for that solo section:

| Fma7 | Emi7 A7 | Dmi7 (Ab7) | G7 |

| Gmi7 | C7 | Eb6 E6 | F6 |

I'd like to ask a really stupid noob question.

How does one know that measure 2 is not just a key modulation to D major? Is the key clue that measure 3 is the relative minor of F major (D minor)?

Same question to Measures 3 and 4 - how do one know that it's not a key modulation to C major? (I guess if you were already convinced that measures 2-3 are a modulation to D minor you wouldn't look at measure 4 as part of a ii-V...)

I guess I'm looking for tips to help me analyze harmony in this type of tune...

Thanks for humoring me,

Jeff

[jweiss]

Aebersold has the second chord as E half diminished.

| Fma7 | Em7b5 A7+9 | Dmi7 | G7 |

| Gmi | C7 | Eb7 | Eb7 |

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by jweiss

FWIW The New Real Book Vol 2 has the same changes for that solo section:

| Fma7 | Emi7 A7 | Dmi7 (Ab7) | G7 |

| Gmi7 | C7 | Eb6 E6 | F6 |

I'd like to ask a really stupid noob question.

How does one know that measure 2 is not just a key modulation to D major? Is the key clue that measure 3 is the relative minor of F major (D minor)?

Same question to Measures 3 and 4 - how do one know that it's not a key modulation to C major? (I guess if you were already convinced that measures 2-3 are a modulation to D minor you wouldn't look at measure 4 as part of a ii-V...)

I guess I'm looking for tips to help me analyze harmony in this type of tune...

A lot of this is subjective, so take with a grain of salt, but...in general, I try to analyze most harmonic progressions from the "inside out", meaning, how much of this progression can be considered "inside/diatonic" harmony - and within this definition, I include secondary function chords like V7/? , viio7/?, parallel minor mode mixture, and sometimes even subV7/? . For me, the factor that usually tips the scales one way or the other is the content of the melody. If the melody is diatonic to the key (as this one is in the A section), then I usually view the harmony as one specific way to color that diatonic melody. When this is the case, the changes of that section usually strike me as very key-centric, which makes me inclined to use the basic key (including leading tones involved in the secondary dominant/seventh chords) as the starting point for improvisation. If it was good enough for the melody.....

As always, YMMV.

[jweiss]

Thanks Chris! Very helpful.

I guess if the second chord were consistently printed as Em7b5 I would be much more likely to see measures 2-3 as the relative minor when looking at the chart alone, but when taken in the context of the melody it makes more sense that it is a minor ii-V.

Cheers,

Jeff

[HaVIC5]

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

As far as I'm concerned, once the blowing begins, it's a minor ii-V to Dmi. Just because the lead sheet might not give a specific alteration for the A7 chord doesn't mean that it's unaltered. I honestly don't know anyone who plays a major ii-V in that spot and resolves to a minor chord on the blowing. As a piano player, I wouldn't play a B natural on that voicing beyond the head because the lead sheet didn't have it written in, especially when the soloist was playing as if over a minor ii-V. YMMV.

Well, true, in this specific instance most people would just think of it as a minor ii-V resolving to minor (I might), and for the sake of a point I've been taking the lead sheet as gospel (a big no-no), but several things. One, if you use my method of finding the diatonic "in between" notes for every chord, you find that the A7 gets most of the typical alterations for a minor dominant anyway. (b9 as Bb, #9 as C, b13 as F). Where you you find the typical alterations to dominants? That's right, diatonically.

Two, there are plenty of instances of "major" ii-V's resolving to a minor tonic (Shadow of Your Smile, My One and Only Love (bridge), etc), and you'd be changing a fundamental aspect of the composition if you just blithely changed it to minor for you convenience. It would sound decidedly out of key if you just played the major key chord sounds (dorian and mixo chord scales) over them, but if you played diatonic connecting notes, it would work a lot better.

Three, say you were playing with an arrangement of horns or strings and the chord symbol you were given was Em7 with the natural 5. The chord symbol isn't flexible (as it is when you're playing more improvised music), and so you're going to get that B natural in arrangment no matter what you do.

I agree with you, though, because the way that this tune is played isn't like the way I've been arguing for. I'm just arguing this point as a way to approach non-diatonic chords in diatonic context.

[deaf pea]

I saw that band (Miles Davis) at Shelly's Manne Hole in '63 or so . . . I thought that I knew what tune y'all are talkin' about, but I listened to the original recording again, just to be sure . . .

That "Em7" in the second measure is another one of the famous "Real Book errors" . . .

What they play, always (heads AND soloing) is Em7(b5) or as J. Aebersold and I say "E half-diminished 7th" . . .

FWIW, for me (at least), it's not about "analysis" . . . it's all there for everyone to hear!

[Il Basso]

Has anyone ever tried during the changes...


| Fma7 | A7+9 | Ab7 | G7 |

| Gmi | Gb7 (or C7) | B7 | Eb7 |


It's fun and gives a bit of a new attitude during the changes with the chromaticism

[dkziemann]

Just a question- has anyone listened to the recording to find out what those musicians do? I think that's the ultimate answer...

[Bruce Lindfield]

I have the Miles Davis CD and have listened many times - as well as playing it with my band on many occasions - no problems!