Soloing over alot of changes....Chord Tone or Scales?

[cire113]

Im just learning jazz really when solo over changes is it easier to think in scales or chord tones?

Or does it really matter and should i just use my ear?

Also what are some tips to utilize "wrong" notes...?

Thanks guys..

Ive been playing blues changes, rhythm changes, and simple jazz standards for over a year now and still not bored( really only 5 or 6 songs)

[jazzlake]

It is a life's work. That's the good news. Learn the scales that work with chords... then, ignore all of that and transcribe music that moves you and tunes you are trying to play. Get it under fingers, in your ear then analyze it.
Like shampoo, rinse and repeat.
Good luck!!!

[Freddels]

It's a combination of both and then some.

Learn the scale and all the arpeggios within that scale. If you can get a program like Band in a Box, set it to play a chord over and over. For example, you are doing the C Major scale, so you set it to play a CMajor7 chord. Now play the C Major arpeggio over it, then try playing the D minor 7 arpeggio over it, then the E minor, etc. You can get a chance to hear how they each sound over it. Some you'll like the sound of and some you won't. Then set the program to play a Dminor7 chord and do the same and also the scale starting on the D (dorian mode). Keep doing this for all the chords and it'll help your ear.

There are lots more things you can do but this is a good start to help with the arpeggios and scales.

[cire113]

is it possible to learn jazz by ear?

[Marcus Johnson]

Yes.

[HeadyVan Halen]

Originally Posted by cire113

is it possible to learn jazz by ear?

Isn't that the way the guys who wrote it learned?

Learn everything then forget it and play.

[cire113]

as far as learning everything.. u mean theory wise?

[HeadyVan Halen]

Originally Posted by cire113

as far as learning everything.. u mean theory wise?

Sure. It ain't rocket surgery. The whole 'modes and interval' talk is so self serving..listen dude:
Play a C minor scale (C-D-Eb-F-G-Ab-Bb-C) now play it starting from the 2nd (D) now from the 3rd Eb (relative major) and so on...you are playing modes. Just saved you $29.95.

Another thing to think about: You can think of it as soloing from the second instead of always starting from the root (in this case C) think of it as soloing in Bb Major...now you have A natural instead of Ab but both can be used...

there are 12 notes dude...it's all how you put them together

[jazzlake]

Man, there are a thousand ways to skin a donkey. Learn the theory but, use your ears and play with people better than you. Play with good musicians.

[cire113]

guys i know what i need to practice... Chord tones.. but in different order and fingerings!!

Instead of playing root third 7th.. play 3rd rooth 7th.. or 7th 3rd root .. etc for all basic chords... that will definetly add A huge variety to my playing..

Im still kinda confused if im learning a tone to think these 3 bars are in the key of C'''' then the next 3 bars are in the key of E.. or if i should think in chord tones

[Jazzdogg]

Originally Posted by cire113

<SNIP> when solo[ing] over changes is it easier to think in scales or chord tones?

Or does it really matter and should i just use my ear?<SNIP>

When you're listening to the pianist playing the changes, are you thinking about scales and chords, or the music?

In performance, it's way more important to play the music than the instrument, the scales, or the chords, which are topics for practice and rehearsal.

How do you practice solos? My goal is to listen like a horn player or singer, and be able to play the lines I hear in my musical imagination.

Yes, it takes a lifetime. Be patient with yourself! The best music is fun and life affirming, not drudgery!



IME, IMHO, YMMV, etc.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by cire113

guys i know what i need to practice... Chord tones.. but in different order and fingerings!!

Instead of playing root third 7th.. play 3rd rooth 7th.. or 7th 3rd root .. etc for all basic chords... that will definetly add A huge variety to my playing..

Im still kinda confused if im learning a tone to think these 3 bars are in the key of C'''' then the next 3 bars are in the key of E.. or if i should think in chord tones

The first part - I think what you mean are "inversions" - it is very helpful as a bass player to know all the inversions of every chord.

On the last part I think it's about - what notes are available to me - but it's also about the shape of the tune. It's certainly not about picking any random note from the key.

If you have the sound and shape of the tune in your head - then you can play all sorts of things. I have seen Jazz pros as tutors, playing all the "wrong" notes and making it sound right!

I also think that as the bass player you can add some contrast - leave a lot of space. So often I find that you have had Sax,Guitar, Piano maybe playing loads of notes and then when it comes to a bass solo - you can give the listener a breathing space?

See how few notes you can play and still outline the chords - things like that and then build up?

[Yoghurt]

There's an live recording of Brad Mehldau, Lee Konitz and Charlie Haden playing "Cherokee". The album's called "Alone Together", you'd probably find it on Grooveshark.org. After playing a quarter time feel for most of the tune, Haden plays a really sparse solo and it's soooo nice. Sometimes giving the listener breathing room is the most effective choice, especially if you're following a burning sax solo

EDIT: I uploaded the song so you can definitely hear it here: http://grooveshark.com/s/03+Cherokee/3IEXex?src=5

[PocketGroove82]

Cire,

There is something you really must understand about the current state of jazz education and the tons and tons of products that are being marketed to the masses, like Play-A-Longs and college degree programs. They really push the whole chord scale relationship method hard. The ability to play the scales over a set of changes is easily gradable, but the truth of the matter is that the earliest jazz improvisers came at it from a different angle, namely, EMBELLISHMENT OF THE MELODY. The melody was the place start to and the jumping off point for individual creativity.

Here is an exercise:

1. Pick up your bass.
2. Pick any note. That is your tonic.
3. Play "Happy Birthday" by ear.

let me know how it works out...

[BassSlave]

To expand on the "Happy Birthday" or melody concept watch this...YouTube - Wynton Marsalis Playing Happy Birthday and understand how you can incorporate melodic themes into your playing. not just solos...Sorry its a trumpet player, but the instrument doesn't matter...we beg/borrow/steal from the best of them.

Originally Posted by PocketGroove82

Cire,

Here is an exercise:

1. Pick up your bass.
2. Pick any note. That is your tonic.
3. Play "Happy Birthday" by ear.

let me know how it works out...

[cire113]

so i should really concentrate on the melody?

I guess ill just have to relay on my ear the most...

As far as getting more options in my playing and improvisation etc... i guess thats where practicing chords and stuff comes

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by cire113

so i should really concentrate on the melody?

I guess ill just have to relay on my ear the most...

As far as getting more options in my playing and improvisation etc... i guess thats where practicing chords and stuff comes

There is no one single easy answer. If there was it wouldn't be special!
Fill out your profile and look up Ed Fuqua's "Really learning a Tune" thread.
One important idea: You don't make up your lines and solos OUT of the chord tones and melody as much as BASED on the chord tones and melody.

[BassSlave]

Also check out 12 year old Andreas and how he breaks it down....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSQx...layer_embedded

[PocketGroove82]

Originally Posted by cire113

so i should really concentrate on the melody?

The played out, cliche of learning a language rears it's head again. Sure, you can learn to speak spanish by repeating lines from phrase books, learning to manipulate them and make them your own. but you'll all benefit greatly from getting down into the nitty gritty studying of nouns, verbs, and grammar and syntax.

My main point was that after 4 years at Berklee studying jazz comp, learning everything one could possibly want to know about chord scales relationships I still was like, "Why the $#%* can't I play what I hear in my head!?".

Then a very amazing jazz trumpet player in an improv lesson had me try to play happy birthday with jazz phrasing and it SUCKED. lol. There was a major disconnect between between my musical mind, my ear, and my hands on the instrument. He looked me dead on and said, "How are you gonna do it with a complex bop melody if can't do it with Happy Birthday".

Ever since then I've spent a little time daily just playing the melodies I supposedly already know...amazing grace....Brahms lullaby...hell, I have a big list of the corniest tunes on earth that everyone knows and I pick a new one and have at it, just to build and reinforce that connection. Then later it's fun to quote bits of those popular melodies in actual solos.

Sry for the long windedness. But back to the point:

You asked if you should think in scales or chords. Well, when I asked a similar question to my enlightened trumpet mentor, he said, "I'm not thinking scales or chords. I'm hearing choice notes and ideas I like, and then playing them". And the only way to get better at that is to do it. Example, since you're working on the blues, you could sing aloud a bluesy idea, then try and play it right back. Do it with a playalong. I'm positive that this kind of practical ear training practice creates connections in the brain that you just don't develop by doing "data entry" and plugging in scales and chord tones into a harmonic matrix....which, I'm sure, develops different and useful neural pathways in the brain.

Thanks for reading. Just some stuff I've wanted to talk about for a while.

[PocketGroove82]

Originally Posted by BassSlave

Also check out 12 year old Andreas and how he breaks it down....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSQx...layer_embedded

wow. I like the look on his face when he plays.