Using computer software/tools as musical aids...

[RajBOB]

Hi,

Apologies if this topic is covered somewhere else but I couldn't seem to spot it - also this might not be the best place for this thread but I'm sure it can be moved if need be!

I've recently started out on DB (a total of four months ago!) having made the move from the electric. Needless to say I absolutely love the sound and the physicality of playing the upright much to the dismay of friends and family who can't get much sensible conversation from me on non-bass topics at the moment...

So as part of this new muscial journey, I'm interested in what bits of software/ programmes other TB'ers might use in their practice and playing. I'm referring to things like Band in a Box, Transcriber, ear trainers, theory packages/references etc, etc...I know that there's a lot of amazing tools out there that can help with aspects of playing and learning in a way that wasn't available until relativily recently. I'm suggesting that this replaces the ultimate aim of playing with others but perhaps some of this can speed things up in reaching that destination.

What kind of stuff do people use? What are general views on the merits of this stuff? Does it actually help and speed up learning, what have personal experiences been like?

I would be really interested to hear views on this and grateful for any advice.

Ta!

[Charling]

hmm, I'm in two minds about the subject.

I think the best ear trainer you have is your bass ie the time you spend transcribing tunes, analyzing ideas etc on your bass is the time at which you are developing your ear the most.

I guess online programs may help speed up chord recognition but I believe that as your ear gets better being able to pick out the tones in a given chord becomes easier anyway!

I would much rather spend two hours transcribing than two hours guessing chords, as the transcribing is working on all aspects of my playing. Also, I guess you could always listen to tracks, try and work out there progression then check em in one of the books.

I DO use online theory references however, its nice to go to places like jguitar.com and look at there list of synthetic scales to get ideas, but its no different to buying a good book I guess.

as for actually learning theory, I used to do allot of online reading but I suddenly started getting a much better understanding when I took dedicated practical theory lessons and bought a good book. (the advantage of a book is that it goes through from beginning to end as a complete explaination, whereas most websites are split into bitesize chunks, and are often less coherant)

so I guess im saying that I dont think they speed up learning that much, its nice to have them all there as references and I do like to browse and occasionally I read something interesting, but the most important things I have learnt (by a long way) have come from the age old sources of a good teacher or two, and a good all-in-one book, like one of the mark levine ones.

Band in a box however, I quite like. Its quick to throw in a load of chords to grind on, and its nice to try out ideas etc. however, I hate it so-called 'swing' with a passion! I advise not playing over its artificial choppy-ness TOO much as you may start to play like that yourself (I did temporarily!) either that or just put it on a straight-utility pattern which has doesnt try to swing.

I prefer the abersold books, but of course you cant say 'lets try the version with a Bb bass here and the alternate B section' with them!

[RajBOB]

Charling, thanks for the reply. I'll be aware of it perils of overly using BiB and not getting to sucked into it's articfical sense of swing (though I hope my 10 years or so on electric and sense of time and rhythm will stand me in good stead there). I do find it useful though for transposing through keys quite quickly when trying to practise those 2-5-1s (not that i'm getting very far with that at the moment ). I'm hoping it'll get the sound into my head and I think it's but much to expect some more accomplished musicians to keep vamping them for me to practice along too!

I take your point on board about transposing as the best vehicle to improve the ear rather than chord recognition programmes as all everyone keeps saying it's bigger picture and the context that the chords appear in that is ultimately more important than the isolate chord itself. Plus as you mention, there's a whole load of other stuff that you learn at same time when transcribing, it's just overall more musical.

Do you use anything to slow down music when you transcribe, or perhaps when you started? Is this 'cheating'?

RB

[Charling]

no problem mate! well, for things like II-V-I's and the like you may like this -

http://www.amazon.com/Vol-II-V7-Prog.../dp/B000001O58

it comes with a cd and a book on ideas to use etc, and its a nice addition to the BiaB way of working because it is played by really good musicians and you can fade the bass out with a panner! so you really can get the pros to loop II-V-I's all day for you

as for slowing down tempos when transcribing, I have used pacemaker for winamp before, I dont believe its cheating anyone but yourself to do so however. To start with just learning and internalising the sounds of the scales/ideas used and analysing what the best of the best are doing is good enough, and you will slowly break your ear into being able to recognize things quicker, so when you start doing things full tempo you wont be lost in the dark.

The main argument Ive heard against this is 'well john coltrane and charlie parker never had these tools, and look how good they got! etc' and although i understand that I think you have to move with the times in some way.

perhaps they just started out transcribing slow stuff and moved up, perhaps they didnt transcribe at all and were born with it all internalised so they just practiced loads and they could do it, who knows, but music has moved on since then, they paved the way and then things evolved.

so I think that by using a slowing-down program you are allowing yourself to start to transcribe a wider range of (faster) stuff from the word go, which may inspire you to do it more often, and may allow you to start playing how you want to quicker. after all, were not here to play like bird or coltrane, we are here to learn from them, and then move on to the next step (or at least try too!)

however, if you start transcribing fast solos as soon as you can get the notes to paper at full tempo, without any slow-down devices, you are strengthening your ear allot more, or at least training it to be accurate (and quick at hearing all passages regardless of tempo even quicker)

so i'd say, if you really want to learn a solo that someone has done, and you believe understanding it would make you a better player, but you need a pacemaker to do it, then i'd say go for it. but in the long term it will make your ear stronger if you can do it full tempo!

[anon_6j591b0]

+1 on all you've said on transcription and BIAB. I only use BIAB now to compensate for my lack of piano skills when I want to hear a chord progression in real time and I NEVER turn the drums on.

I found this open code linux based (but also ported to windows) free Gnu Project ear training ware I kinda like: http://www.solfege.org/
It goes through identifying melodic and harmonic intervals, comparing harmonic intervals, singing them, identifying and singing root position and inverted chords, singing chord tones, a wide variety of scale approached ascending, descending and arpeggiated in various intervals, identifying and playing rhythms, dictation exercises and user configurable exercises dealing with much of the above.

I very much agree that rather than software like this your time is better spent transcribing real music. Unfortunately I have a hard time with doing that away from a piano or bass...and yeah I know that means it's exactly what I should be working on. I'm finding ware like this useful though during travel, in long moments of down time at the day gig and even as part of the regular practice routine just to help get me closer more quickly to transcription away from the instrument.

By far the most useful a computer has been for me though is making it easy to record everything and zero in on things I'd like to change and to monitor that change.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Agreed with all the disclaimers. That said, some things I like to use:

Sibelius (for notating transcriptions)

Transcribe! (for spot checking fast passages after I've given them a go in real time)

Audacity/Peak/Sound Studio (for editing/cleaning up my own recordings, which i listen to incessantly and which keep reminding me that, "if it ain't in tune, it don't sound good"...among other things)

Garageband/Rhythm Jampack (for playing along with canned drum grooves)

But by far the most common use of "technology in the shed" I use is the EQ on my mixing board: it's really useful to remove most of the bass from real recordings and play along with the greats. I learn a lot more from this than from using playalongs. YMMV.

Edit: Here's a link to a previous thread on the topic.

[mocorob]

I've been using Finale Notepad to enter in my Simandl excercises and solos that my teacher gives me, so I use it just for having piano accompanyment, it's good for checking intonation, especially as you move up the neck, it's also freeware.

[suraci]

Play with a recorder on. Days later listen to your music!

You must get so deep into a tune that you forget everything... you are deep into the music. My opinion.

The music at that point is LEADING you, not the other way around.. intellect. Of course that is high art.

Practice to a point that you find shear joy in it; time passes unnoticed.. that kind of thing.

You can listen to it later, even transcribe it! That is when technology is handy, but music is a high art, leaving technology and techies in the dust.

Now go grasshopper and make music

[RajBOB]

Thanks for all the responses - especially the advice on recording those deep playing moments Suraci - hear completely what you're saying on that one

There will be times though when practice is just that, practice...mechanical, methodical, repetative etc. It's these times that I i'm interested in trying to use all the tools we have available (though I guess it can be argued practice should always involve making music!).

[Big_Fat_Dynamo]

anyone know of any programs i can use to slow down the songs or whatever?

[anon_6j591b0]

Originally Posted by Big_Fat_Dynamo

anyone know of any programs i can use to slow down the songs or whatever?

The Amazing Slowdowner
http://www.ronimusic.com/slowdown.htm

[Damon Rondeau]

Windows Media Player does this now, too.

[bassksun]

Great thread here. A couple of questions.

Is there anything like Garageband that will run on the Windows OS?

Does anyone know of a note trainer? I've seen them for g***ar, but not for bass.

Also for slowing down songs I use World Wide Woodshed's SlowGold. It seems to have an easier interface for me.


Thanks

[Charling]

Originally Posted by bassksun

Great thread here. A couple of questions.

Is there anything like Garageband that will run on the Windows OS?

Does anyone know of a note trainer? I've seen them for g***ar, but not for bass.

Also for slowing down songs I use World Wide Woodshed's SlowGold. It seems to have an easier interface for me.


Thanks

cubase LE is like garageband, with the added bonus that it also has ALLOT more features, and is PC based.

im not sure of a note trainer software, but the best way of learning (I have found, for me) is playing tunes on one string.

start off with a ballad, and just play roots, once you've played 'at last' 10 times round on one string you'll be pretty sure of where all the notes are! it'll take a few frustrating times round before you nail it but the ballad tempo allows you to take your time and remember where the notes are. once you add thirds etc you're laughing, its always good to say the note loud or in your head when you go to it, which not only reinforces the notes on the 'board, but it also makes it easier to remember in a flash what 'the third of F' or whatever is.

once youve done that, only three strings to go!

[bassksun]

Thx