Want to get better at Swinging.

Alan Vorse · #1 03-22-2007, 12:42 PM

I will admit that my portal into jazz was fusion and jazz/funk. Coming from a funk and rock background, no problem. Now I play the Real Bass and am really digging in. I have spent so much time thinking about which notes to play, that I have neglected the feel.

So I have asked around and the general consensus is that swing should be thought of in triplets. More specifically, 8th note triplets with the first two notes tied. Is this accurate? What can be done to work on this feel? I have heard some people say using a metronome with clicks on 2 and 4 to simulate hi-hat.

I'll also add that I'm playing with a drummer who is kind of new to swinging so we are trying to figure it out together. So any Rhythm Section advice I can pass on to him would be great.

Aaron Saunders · #2 03-22-2007, 06:36 PM

Listen to some records, man. Emulate that sound.

Jeff Guevin · #3 03-22-2007, 07:24 PM

Lest you think Aaron's brief answer is trite or flippant--he's dead on. Go do that. And while you're at it, enjoy the music, too, because swing isn't just a technique. You've gotta love the feel to do it right.

Michael Case · #4 03-22-2007, 07:40 PM

Get together with your drummer and listen to Ray Brown with Ed Thigpen, Paul Chambers with ANY drummer, Ron Carter with Tony Williams, Ron Carter with Elvin Jones then try to make your playing feel like that. Walking is all about feel, don't over analyze it.

hdiddy · #5 03-22-2007, 07:56 PM

I'd suggest listening to alot of Basie - especially the smaller groups with Eddie Jones, Walter Page, etc. etc... The Kansas City 5 and 6 albums are all really fabulous. I remember reading a couple of Count Basie interviews where he was talking about it magically swinging like crazy if they came down in volume. There's such a beauty in the simplicity of what they were doing.

As a practice, you should definitely do the 'nome on 2 & 4 and try as hard as you can to get the metronome to sound like it's swinging.

JazzDude · #6 03-23-2007, 09:14 AM

Start with this: A walking swing bassline generally uses legato quarter notes with an emphasis (accent) on the 2 and 4.

Can't help your drummer. Maybe he could post to a drummer forum.

Get a teacher.

Jeff Guevin · #7 03-23-2007, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JazzDude

Start with this: A walking swing bassline generally uses legato quarter notes with an emphasis (accent) on the 2 and 4.

I think I have to disagree here--I'm not sure I've ever heard a swinging bass player who actually accented 2 and 4. I guess that would be better than accenting 1 and 3, but it wouldn't sound great.

Really, just listen and internalize the feel, play along, do that other stuff people said. A teacher is definitely a good idea.

Jeff Guevin · #8 03-23-2007, 10:09 AM

Not that it "answers" the question, but there's some discussion in an old thread: What makes swing swing?

fingers · #9 03-23-2007, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jguevin

I think I have to disagree here--I'm not sure I've ever heard a swinging bass player who actually accented 2 and 4. I guess that would be better than accenting 1 and 3, but it wouldn't sound great.

I accent 2 and 4. If you are doing a straight quarter note walk either accenting or putting in occasional ghost notes on 2 and 4 help give the groove forward motion. These are very slight accents and I agree that just feeling the groove on 2 and 4 might make you lean on those notes a little more.

I remember I did a gig with a older cat that was the tenor player with the Inkspots. After the first set he said, "Man, your time is solid but where's 2 and 4? You gotta step on those m*****f******!" Ever since I make sure that I feel 4/4 swing that way.

JazzDude · #10 03-23-2007, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jguevin

I think I have to disagree here--I'm not sure I've ever heard a swinging bass player who actually accented 2 and 4. I guess that would be better than accenting 1 and 3, but it wouldn't sound great.

Really, just listen and internalize the feel, play along, do that other stuff people said. A teacher is definitely a good idea.

I'm sure you *have* heard them doing it - you just didn't know it.

Ed Fuqua · #11 03-23-2007, 11:42 AM

Especially at up tempoes, accenting 2 and 4 can give the time a 'ponderous" feel, instead of staying light, flexible and responsive. Try instead to feel yourself moving towards the downbeat, kind of 12341 etc.

I disagree heartily in the idea that accenting a quarter note line is what gives a line forward motion. Listen to Sonny Dallas on MOTION, he is playing a straight quarter note line that propels the harmony forward by playing a line of pitches that move forward, that carry your ear forward. The difference between nailing the time to the floor and and propelling it forward is not the result of cluttering things up.

Jeff Guevin · #12 03-23-2007, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JazzDude

I'm sure you *have* heard them doing it - you just didn't know it.

Actually, I've heard it done, knew it, and said to myself, "Man, that's just not swinging." Maybe it's just a preference of mine for a certain type of feel. I'm with Ed, and also I'd agree with fingers here: "just feeling the groove on 2 and 4 might make you lean on those notes a little more", but I personally wouldn't advocate intentionally accenting the notes.

Anyway, I wouldn't want to cloud a perfectly fine thread for a newcomer to swing with too many details. I also sense looming arguments over who's swingin' and who ain't, and that's no good for no one.

damonsmith · #13 03-23-2007, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

Especially at up tempoes, accenting 2 and 4 can give the time a 'ponderous" feel, instead of staying light, flexible and responsive. Try instead to feel yourself moving towards the downbeat, kind of 12341 etc.

I disagree heartily in the idea that accenting a quarter note line is what gives a line forward motion. Listen to Sonny Dallas on MOTION, he is playing a straight quarter note line that propels the harmony forward by playing a line of pitches that move forward, that carry your ear forward. The difference between nailing the time to the floor and and propelling it forward is not the result of cluttering things up.

- I agree, but the part you left out was that Elvin Jones is playing drums. A straight quarter note line will swing hard with a drummer like that.
I love that record. Garrision and Ware also tend to play straight up and down with Elvin.
I think you have to understand it as perpetual motion, and learn to hear what the situation needs. Often it does need straight Quarters.
Once you understand it as perpetual motion it can be useful in so many contexts beyond straight ahead jazz.

fingers · #14 03-23-2007, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

I disagree heartily in the idea that accenting a quarter note line is what gives a line forward motion.

How do think about it? I ask this as an honest question of someone that has more experience than me. I know how I create harmonic propulsion but especially in a setting where there is no drummer what do you do to create rhythmic propulsion? I just keep thinking of that sax player's comment that I mentioned before.

There was a great interview in Downbeat a few years back with Jack DeJohnette. He talks about how an accent, either implied or real, on the back beat is part of what makes jazz time unique. He then goes on to talk about all the different ways he does this including not playing anything. I'll see if I can dig it up.

Ed Fuqua · #15 03-23-2007, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by damonsmith

- I agree, but the part you left out was that Elvin Jones is playing drums. A straight quarter note line will swing hard with a drummer like that.
I love that record. Garrision and Ware also tend to play straight up and down with Elvin.
I think you have to understand it as perpetual motion, and learn to hear what the situation needs. Often it does need straight Quarters.
Once you understand it as perpetual motion it can be useful in so many contexts beyond straight ahead jazz.

But it still swings hard when it's Nick Stabulas playing drums or Sonny on the Phil & Quill recordings or recordings I've heard of Sonny playing without a drummer.

Or Jimmy Garrison with Paul Motian on the Half Note recordings, he's using that approach (just quarters, no embellishment) with a vastly different drummer than Elvin and it still carries the harmony forward.

Look, do what you want. All I can speak to is my experience and that is going from somebody who was doing all the drops and triplet pickups and ghost notes and ****, trying to get a line to happen and sounding kinda OK to being able to make a straight quarter note line swing just standing there by myself.

And I guarantee, you start working on playing IN TIME, just quarter notes, you and the drummer (just playing quarter notes on his ride cymbal), you start HEARING lines that push the harmony forward. Try it for two months, then tell me I'm full of ****.

Ed Fuqua · #16 03-23-2007, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fingers

How do think about it? I ask this as an honest question of someone that has more experience than me. I know how I create harmonic propulsion but especially in a setting where there is no drummer what do you do to create rhythmic propulsion? I just keep thinking of that sax player's comment that I mentioned before.

There was a great interview in Downbeat a few years back with Jack DeJohnette. He talks about how an accent, either implied or real, on the back beat is part of what makes jazz time unique. He then goes on to talk about all the different ways he does this including not playing anything. I'll see if I can dig it up.

I just play quarter notes, I try not to play anything I don't hear, I try to play the center of the beat.

But the big thing is not just to play notes or where my fingers fall, but to try to hear an actual LINE going through the harmony, a line that moves in an arc through the tune, that is flexible enough to respond to the soloist, the accompanists, what my conception of the tune is.

Jeff Guevin · #17 03-23-2007, 01:34 PM

I just thought of something else, can't resist: one thing I find dissatisfying about the "two and four" account of swing is the fact that one can undeniably swing like a mofo in three or five or seven or what have you. I can't imagine that's because there are some other magical beats to accent in each possible time signature (one TWO three four FIVE??). Witness Tain and Reginald rocking the 5/4 "Harriet Tubman" on Wynton's "Thick in the South" (a solid album also featuring Joe Henderson and Elvin Jones, for all you Wynton-haters).

damonsmith · #18 03-23-2007, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

And I guarantee, you start working on playing IN TIME, just quarter notes, you and the drummer (just playing quarter notes on his ride cymbal), you start HEARING lines that push the harmony forward. Try it for two months, then tell me I'm full of ****.

- I did 4 years, outside, just duo with a tenor player. Nothing but quarter notes not one fill or solo for 4 years. I am huge fan of really studying the quarter note walking line and finding all the sublties.
I also work on walking with the metronome on all 4 beats.

Aaron Saunders · #19 03-23-2007, 03:22 PM

On the 2&4 question...one of my teachers mentioned this to me, so as soon as I was done class, I went home and went through my recordings and found PC doing this pretty frequently. Dig some live videos of the 50's quintet on YouTube.

Not saying a "boom-DA, boom-DA" is necessary, but a slight lean/accent IMO can really make a walking line happen sometimes...but sometimes is the key word. This really is an individual thing as far as playing goes -- some guys don't like it, some do. I like a slight emphasis on 2 and 4, but I also like a bit more comping than usual during my solos and find music theory interesting. These are all just preferences.

Aaron Cohn · #20 03-23-2007, 04:21 PM

On the 2 & 4 question--in my experience it's a common beginner mistake to over-emphasize 2 and 4. Mostly I think it's players trying to do what they think they're supposed to do. I'd advise the OP to be very careful with this and concentrate more on developing evenness and forward motion. And follow the advice given above to listen a lot and pay attention to the different feels of different players.